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rc stream

Ed Summers
A few people have mentioned [1] to me that the Recent Changes IRC channels are going to be shut down in favor of the new Socket.IO based stream [2].

Does anyone know if this is anything more than a rumor?

//Ed

[1] https://github.com/edsu/wikistream/issues/42
[2] https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/RCStream

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Re: rc stream

Yuvi Panda
It is going to be at Some Point In The Far Future, and there will be a
large amount of notice given, and possibly a less reliable IRC bridge
running on labs.

But no concrete plans at the moment. You should still migrate, however :)

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Re: rc stream

Ed Summers
That wasn't the most compelling argument for migrating. But thanks for the response:

//Ed



> On Apr 7, 2015, at 1:40 PM, Yuvi Panda <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> It is going to be at Some Point In The Far Future, and there will be a
> large amount of notice given, and possibly a less reliable IRC bridge
> running on labs.
>
> But no concrete plans at the moment. You should still migrate, however :)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiki-research-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l

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Re: rc stream

Yuvi Panda
On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Ed Summers <[hidden email]> wrote:
> That wasn't the most compelling argument for migrating. But thanks for the response:

Heh. The compelling arguments for migration to me are:

1. This gives you structured JSON, no need to futz around with IRC
colors. This is a big one, I think
2. Easier to extend from the mediawiki side, so more events should be
easier to add.
3. Far easier to consume rcstream than IRC Feeds (Websockets vs IRC)
4. Running our own IRC server is not the most fun thing in the world,
and our ops team would like to not have to keep doing that forever.

I find (1) and (3) most compelling - look at the client examples on
https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/RCStream#Client, they're vastly
simpler than similar examples for IRC



--
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Re: rc stream

Ed Summers
I understand the reason to use /rc if I were creating a new application. I don't understand the rationale for spending the time to switch over an existing application though.

Having diffs (or other new data) as part of the stream would be a big reason to switch however.

I apologize for using wiki-research for this conversation. It seems more suited for wikipedia-tech in hindsight.



> On Apr 7, 2015, at 3:56 PM, Yuvi Panda <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Ed Summers <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> That wasn't the most compelling argument for migrating. But thanks for the response:
>
> Heh. The compelling arguments for migration to me are:
>
> 1. This gives you structured JSON, no need to futz around with IRC
> colors. This is a big one, I think
> 2. Easier to extend from the mediawiki side, so more events should be
> easier to add.
> 3. Far easier to consume rcstream than IRC Feeds (Websockets vs IRC)
> 4. Running our own IRC server is not the most fun thing in the world,
> and our ops team would like to not have to keep doing that forever.
>
> I find (1) and (3) most compelling - look at the client examples on
> https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/RCStream#Client, they're vastly
> simpler than similar examples for IRC
>
>
>
> --
> Yuvi Panda T
> http://yuvi.in/blog

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Re: rc stream

Aaron Halfaker-3
In reply to this post by Yuvi Panda
Ed, 

I think you might have misunderstood Yuvi's first response. 

and possibly a less reliable IRC bridge
running on labs.

I believe he meant that, rather than shutting down the IRC feed entirely, we'd write a bridge between RCStream and an IRC server so that laggards who insist on using IRC don't see their tools go down.  But that bridge will inevitably be less stable than RCStream -- which using common/standard formats (JSON) on top of a standard protocol (websockets).  

Really, RCStream is what the IRC feed ought to have been -- and probably would have been if those standards were available at the time of its construction.   RCStream solves the same problem better.  

-Aaron

On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 2:56 PM, Yuvi Panda <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Ed Summers <[hidden email]> wrote:
> That wasn't the most compelling argument for migrating. But thanks for the response:

Heh. The compelling arguments for migration to me are:

1. This gives you structured JSON, no need to futz around with IRC
colors. This is a big one, I think
2. Easier to extend from the mediawiki side, so more events should be
easier to add.
3. Far easier to consume rcstream than IRC Feeds (Websockets vs IRC)
4. Running our own IRC server is not the most fun thing in the world,
and our ops team would like to not have to keep doing that forever.

I find (1) and (3) most compelling - look at the client examples on
https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/RCStream#Client, they're vastly
simpler than similar examples for IRC



--
Yuvi Panda T
http://yuvi.in/blog

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Re: rc stream

Thomas Steiner
As we're having a technical discussion now anyway, any thoughts on
Server-Sent Events (SSE), a W3C Recommendation [1], compared to
WebSockets, a W3C Candidate Recommendation [2]? SSE is a match made in
heaven for open, one-way streaming APIs. Support in browsers is solid,
with the prominent exception being MSIE (not sure about Spartan):
http://caniuse.com/#search=server-sent%20events. Fair enough,
WebSockets wins implementation-wise:
http://caniuse.com/#search=websockets. Also check a comparison of
WebSockets vs. SSE:
http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/eventsource/basics/#toc-introduction-differences.
What do you think?

Cheers,
Tom

--
[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/eventsource/
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/websockets/

--
Dr. Thomas Steiner, Employee, Google Inc.
http://blog.tomayac.com, http://twitter.com/tomayac

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Re: rc stream

Ed Summers
In reply to this post by Aaron Halfaker-3

> On Apr 7, 2015, at 4:07 PM, Aaron Halfaker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Really, RCStream is what the IRC feed ought to have been -- and probably would have been if those standards were available at the time of its construction.   RCStream solves the same problem better.

Actually, I understood the first time and I agree with this assessment. I still don’t find it to be a compelling reason to go and do the work. But it probably would’ve taken about as long as it has to try to get a clear answer out of you all :-)

//Ed

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Re: rc stream

Oliver Keyes-4
It'd take equivalent time? So, just like it took you <6 hours to go
from having a question to having answers from multiple people, both
volunteer and staff, it'd take you <6 hours to migrate all of your
services over to this new system?

Woah. You must be quite the engineer.

On 7 April 2015 at 16:42, Ed Summers <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>> On Apr 7, 2015, at 4:07 PM, Aaron Halfaker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Really, RCStream is what the IRC feed ought to have been -- and probably would have been if those standards were available at the time of its construction.   RCStream solves the same problem better.
>
> Actually, I understood the first time and I agree with this assessment. I still don’t find it to be a compelling reason to go and do the work. But it probably would’ve taken about as long as it has to try to get a clear answer out of you all :-)
>
> //Ed
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiki-research-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l
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Re: rc stream

Aaron Halfaker-3
In reply to this post by Ed Summers
Oh!  Well if you understood Yuvi right away, it seems that you *did* get a clear answer out of "us all". 

On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 3:42 PM, Ed Summers <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Apr 7, 2015, at 4:07 PM, Aaron Halfaker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Really, RCStream is what the IRC feed ought to have been -- and probably would have been if those standards were available at the time of its construction.   RCStream solves the same problem better.

Actually, I understood the first time and I agree with this assessment. I still don’t find it to be a compelling reason to go and do the work. But it probably would’ve taken about as long as it has to try to get a clear answer out of you all :-)

//Ed


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Re: rc stream

Ed Summers
Ok, my apologies if this is coming out garbled. Here’s a list of things I think I’ve learned as part of this discussion:

1) currently there is no plan to do away with the IRC stream

//Ed

> On Apr 7, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Aaron Halfaker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Oh!  Well if you understood Yuvi right away, it seems that you *did* get a clear answer out of "us all".
>
> On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 3:42 PM, Ed Summers <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 7, 2015, at 4:07 PM, Aaron Halfaker <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Really, RCStream is what the IRC feed ought to have been -- and probably would have been if those standards were available at the time of its construction.   RCStream solves the same problem better.
>
> Actually, I understood the first time and I agree with this assessment. I still don’t find it to be a compelling reason to go and do the work. But it probably would’ve taken about as long as it has to try to get a clear answer out of you all :-)
>
> //Ed
>

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Re: rc stream

Oliver Keyes-4
Well, if you got all your learning out of the way in the first email,
I'm really confused as to what you thought a backhanded "none of you
are helping" would do 3 hours later. You asked an honest question, you
got a very reasonable and perfectly friendly reply, and then decided,
I guess, that the thread really wouldn't be complete without
denigrating the people who were trying to help. I'd like to expect
more from list subscribers than that.

On 7 April 2015 at 16:50, Ed Summers <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ok, my apologies if this is coming out garbled. Here’s a list of things I think I’ve learned as part of this discussion:
>
> 1) currently there is no plan to do away with the IRC stream
>
> //Ed
>
>> On Apr 7, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Aaron Halfaker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Oh!  Well if you understood Yuvi right away, it seems that you *did* get a clear answer out of "us all".
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 3:42 PM, Ed Summers <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > On Apr 7, 2015, at 4:07 PM, Aaron Halfaker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> > Really, RCStream is what the IRC feed ought to have been -- and probably would have been if those standards were available at the time of its construction.   RCStream solves the same problem better.
>>
>> Actually, I understood the first time and I agree with this assessment. I still don’t find it to be a compelling reason to go and do the work. But it probably would’ve taken about as long as it has to try to get a clear answer out of you all :-)
>>
>> //Ed
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiki-research-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
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>



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Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: rc stream

Ed Summers

> On Apr 7, 2015, at 4:54 PM, Oliver Keyes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Well, if you got all your learning out of the way in the first email,
> I'm really confused as to what you thought a backhanded "none of you
> are helping" would do 3 hours later. You asked an honest question, you
> got a very reasonable and perfectly friendly reply, and then decided,
> I guess, that the thread really wouldn't be complete without
> denigrating the people who were trying to help. I'd like to expect
> more from list subscribers than that.

I apologize if what I said was denigrating. I can see how it could’ve been seen that way, and I regret it. I sincerely appreciate the help that has been offered.

And you’re right to expect more of list subscribers. I’ll do better.

//Ed

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Re: rc stream

Oliver Keyes-4
Thanks; that's most appreciated. For what it's worth, I'll try not to
instinctively go at anyone who's mean to Yuvi.[0]


[0] Only I get to be mean to Yuvi. Me and whoever was cruel enough to
make him run Labs ;p

On 7 April 2015 at 16:58, Ed Summers <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>> On Apr 7, 2015, at 4:54 PM, Oliver Keyes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Well, if you got all your learning out of the way in the first email,
>> I'm really confused as to what you thought a backhanded "none of you
>> are helping" would do 3 hours later. You asked an honest question, you
>> got a very reasonable and perfectly friendly reply, and then decided,
>> I guess, that the thread really wouldn't be complete without
>> denigrating the people who were trying to help. I'd like to expect
>> more from list subscribers than that.
>
> I apologize if what I said was denigrating. I can see how it could’ve been seen that way, and I regret it. I sincerely appreciate the help that has been offered.
>
> And you’re right to expect more of list subscribers. I’ll do better.
>
> //Ed
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiki-research-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l
>



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