renaming Wikimedia domains

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renaming Wikimedia domains

Amir E. Aharoni
Hi,

Is it possible in 2015 to rename Wikimedia domains?

The usual domain name structure for a Wikimedia project is
languageCode.project.org: en.wikipedia.org, it.wikisource.org, etc.

In a few projects the language code in the domain is different from the
actual language code: 'als' is a code for Tosk Albanian, but
als.wikipedia.org is written in Alemanic; 'no' is a code for both Bokmal
Norwegian and Nynorsk Norwegian, but no.wikipedia.org is only Bokmal; and
there are several other examples.

In the past when requests to rename such domains were raised, the usual
replies were along the lines of "it's impossible" or "it's not worth the
technical effort", but I don't know the details.

Is this still correct in 2015?

I would love to get that done, because these inconsistent and non-standard
codes repeatedly cause issues in various languages applications, the
current big one being ContentTranslation.

Thanks!

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
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Re: renaming Wikimedia domains

Kartik Mistry
On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Amir E. Aharoni
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> In a few projects the language code in the domain is different from the
> actual language code: 'als' is a code for Tosk Albanian, but
> als.wikipedia.org is written in Alemanic; 'no' is a code for both Bokmal
> Norwegian and Nynorsk Norwegian, but no.wikipedia.org is only Bokmal; and
> there are several other examples.
>
> In the past when requests to rename such domains were raised, the usual
> replies were along the lines of "it's impossible" or "it's not worth the
> technical effort", but I don't know the details.

Also see: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T21986 (Wikis waiting to
be renamed (tracking))

--
Kartik Mistry/કાર્તિક મિસ્ત્રી | IRC: kart_
{kartikm, 0x1f1f}.wordpress.com

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Re: renaming Wikimedia domains

Ryan Kaldari-2
be-x-old.wikipedia.org has been waiting to be renamed since 2007, so
apparently it's not a quick process.

On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 10:24 PM, Kartik Mistry <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Amir E. Aharoni
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > In a few projects the language code in the domain is different from the
> > actual language code: 'als' is a code for Tosk Albanian, but
> > als.wikipedia.org is written in Alemanic; 'no' is a code for both Bokmal
> > Norwegian and Nynorsk Norwegian, but no.wikipedia.org is only Bokmal;
> and
> > there are several other examples.
> >
> > In the past when requests to rename such domains were raised, the usual
> > replies were along the lines of "it's impossible" or "it's not worth the
> > technical effort", but I don't know the details.
>
> Also see: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T21986 (Wikis waiting to
> be renamed (tracking))
>
> --
> Kartik Mistry/કાર્તિક મિસ્ત્રી | IRC: kart_
> {kartikm, 0x1f1f}.wordpress.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: renaming Wikimedia domains

Antoine Musso-3
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
Le 26/08/2015 07:20, Amir E. Aharoni a écrit :
> In the past when requests to rename such domains were raised, the usual
> replies were along the lines of "it's impossible" or "it's not worth the
> technical effort", but I don't know the details.
>
> Is this still correct in 2015?

As pointed out: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T21986

For what it is worth, in 2011 JeLuF wrote a list of actions needed to
rename a wiki.  It is outdated nowadays but that is sufficient to state
renaming a wiki is a non-trivial task:
https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Rename_a_wiki

It would surely consume a lot of engineering time to come up with a
proper migration plan and actually conduct them.  I am not sure it is
worth the time and money unfortunately.

--
Antoine "hashar" Musso


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Re: renaming Wikimedia domains

Jaime Crespo
(this is not an official response, just my opinion after some research on
the topic)

Due to internal (and growing) complexity of the mediawiki software, and WMF
installation (regarding numerous plugins and services/servers), this is a
non trivial task. It also involves many moving pieces and many people-
network admins (dns), general operations (load control/downtime), dbas
(import/export), services, deployment engineers and developers (mediawiki
configuration changes, patches).

What's worse, is that it would almost certainly create downtime for the
wikis involved (not being able to edit) -specially given that it is not a
common operation-, and some of them are smaller communities, and I would be
worried be to annoy or discourage editing on those wikis (when we want the
opposite!).

It would be great to have someone in contact with the community so that we
can identify which sites have a great consensus about renaming the wiki,
and are perfectly informed about the potential problems and still are ok to
go forward. Maybe someone in Community engagement can evaluate risks vs.
return?

On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 9:53 AM, Antoine Musso <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Le 26/08/2015 07:20, Amir E. Aharoni a écrit :
> > In the past when requests to rename such domains were raised, the usual
> > replies were along the lines of "it's impossible" or "it's not worth the
> > technical effort", but I don't know the details.
> >
> > Is this still correct in 2015?
>
> As pointed out: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T21986
>
> For what it is worth, in 2011 JeLuF wrote a list of actions needed to
> rename a wiki.  It is outdated nowadays but that is sufficient to state
> renaming a wiki is a non-trivial task:
> https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Rename_a_wiki
>
> It would surely consume a lot of engineering time to come up with a
> proper migration plan and actually conduct them.  I am not sure it is
> worth the time and money unfortunately.
>
> --
> Antoine "hashar" Musso
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>



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<http://wikimedia.org>
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Re: renaming Wikimedia domains

This, that and the other
Thanks for bringing this up, Amir.

I would point out that since there are such a lot of wikis waiting to be
renamed, there is an opportunity for economy of scale here. If all the
departments/people you list were able to set aside a couple of days to sit down
together and rename the 15+ wikis waiting to be renamed, having figured out a
process and renamed a trial wiki beforehand, I think it could be made
worthwhile.

I also think many of the communities, especially if small, would view a brief
period of downtime as an acceptable tradeoff for having their domain name
corrected. Especially "be-x-old", I've always thought that one was pretty ugly,
and wouldn't be surprised if the Taraškievica Belarusian Wikipedia community
felt the same way.

I agree that getting community engagement/community liaisons involved and
talking with relevant developers/ops folks and the affected editing communities
would be a good next step.

TTO

(Sorry for not replying inline: my news client is pretty dumb, as you can
probably guess from the header line below.)

--
"Jaime Crespo"  wrote in message
news:[hidden email]...

(this is not an official response, just my opinion after some research on
the topic)

Due to internal (and growing) complexity of the mediawiki software, and WMF
installation (regarding numerous plugins and services/servers), this is a
non trivial task. It also involves many moving pieces and many people-
network admins (dns), general operations (load control/downtime), dbas
(import/export), services, deployment engineers and developers (mediawiki
configuration changes, patches).

What's worse, is that it would almost certainly create downtime for the
wikis involved (not being able to edit) -specially given that it is not a
common operation-, and some of them are smaller communities, and I would be
worried be to annoy or discourage editing on those wikis (when we want the
opposite!).

It would be great to have someone in contact with the community so that we
can identify which sites have a great consensus about renaming the wiki,
and are perfectly informed about the potential problems and still are ok to
go forward. Maybe someone in Community engagement can evaluate risks vs.
return?

On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 9:53 AM, Antoine Musso <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Le 26/08/2015 07:20, Amir E. Aharoni a écrit :
> > In the past when requests to rename such domains were raised, the usual
> > replies were along the lines of "it's impossible" or "it's not worth the
> > technical effort", but I don't know the details.
> >
> > Is this still correct in 2015?
>
> As pointed out: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T21986
>
> For what it is worth, in 2011 JeLuF wrote a list of actions needed to
> rename a wiki.  It is outdated nowadays but that is sufficient to state
> renaming a wiki is a non-trivial task:
> https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Rename_a_wiki
>
> It would surely consume a lot of engineering time to come up with a
> proper migration plan and actually conduct them.  I am not sure it is
> worth the time and money unfortunately.
>
> --
> Antoine "hashar" Musso
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>



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<http://wikimedia.org>
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Re: renaming Wikimedia domains

Mormegil
In reply to this post by Antoine Musso-3
On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 9:53 AM, Antoine Musso <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It would surely consume a lot of engineering time to come up with a
> proper migration plan and actually conduct them.  I am not sure it is
> worth the time and money unfortunately.
>

As noted by Eric Lippert, “If you're going to make a
backward-compatibility-breaking change, no time is better than now; things
will be worse in the future.” [1]

If “we” are not going to invest the time and money _now_, we are probably
_never_ going to do that, so if that is the case, let’s state that
explicitly, close the relevant bugs as WONTFIX and stop making the
impression the renaming could happen sometimes later.

-- [[cs:User:Mormegil | Petr Kadlec]]

[1] http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=2425867
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Re: renaming Wikimedia domains

MZMcBride-2
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
>Is it possible in 2015 to rename Wikimedia domains?

As others have pointed out, it's a non-trivial task to rename a wiki.

That said, creating a wiki is actually fairly easy, so maybe we should
investigate a large-scale export and import process instead of renaming.

MZMcBride



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Re: renaming Wikimedia domains

Jaime Crespo
On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 3:19 PM, MZMcBride <[hidden email]> wrote:

> That said, creating a wiki is actually fairly easy, so maybe we should
> investigate a large-scale export and import process instead of renaming.
>

My answer already assumed that as the only way, hence the downtime. :-)
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Re: renaming Wikimedia domains

Alex Monk
In reply to this post by Jaime Crespo
On 26 August 2015 at 10:35, Jaime Crespo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Due to internal (and growing) complexity of the mediawiki software, and WMF
> installation (regarding numerous plugins and services/servers), this is a
> non trivial task. It also involves many moving pieces and many people-
> network admins (dns), general operations (load control/downtime), dbas
> (import/export), services, deployment engineers and developers (mediawiki
> configuration changes, patches).
>
> What's worse, is that it would almost certainly create downtime for the
> wikis involved (not being able to edit) -specially given that it is not a
> common operation-, and some of them are smaller communities, and I would be
> worried be to annoy or discourage editing on those wikis (when we want the
> opposite!).


I'm not sure why database changes would be involved in a domain-only
change? It should be simple enough to get the new domain set up in DNS and
apache config, tell multiversion how to map it to the old DB name (there's
an array in setSiteInfoForWiki that does this bit), and once it's all
working swap wgServer and related variables over to the new domain.
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Re: renaming Wikimedia domains

Jaime Crespo
On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Alex Monk <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm not sure why database changes would be involved in a domain-only
> change? It should be simple enough to get the new domain set up in DNS and
> apache config, tell multiversion how to map it to the old DB name (there's
> an array in setSiteInfoForWiki that does this bit), and once it's all
>

Not a developer, but AFAIK It requires a patch, that is proposed (by Reedy,
I think), but not implemented. And there are other blockers like non-main
DB dependencies on FlowDB, external storage and X1 plugins, plus some names
inside the rows. But I am not the mediawiki expert. Feel free to contribute
to the above mentioned tickets.

--
Jaime Crespo
<http://wikimedia.org>
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Re: renaming Wikimedia domains

Ricordisamoa
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
Also note that Wikibase sitelinks are based on database names like
'be_x_oldwiki'...

Il 26/08/2015 07:20, Amir E. Aharoni ha scritto:

> Hi,
>
> Is it possible in 2015 to rename Wikimedia domains?
>
> The usual domain name structure for a Wikimedia project is
> languageCode.project.org: en.wikipedia.org, it.wikisource.org, etc.
>
> In a few projects the language code in the domain is different from the
> actual language code: 'als' is a code for Tosk Albanian, but
> als.wikipedia.org is written in Alemanic; 'no' is a code for both Bokmal
> Norwegian and Nynorsk Norwegian, but no.wikipedia.org is only Bokmal; and
> there are several other examples.
>
> In the past when requests to rename such domains were raised, the usual
> replies were along the lines of "it's impossible" or "it's not worth the
> technical effort", but I don't know the details.
>
> Is this still correct in 2015?
>
> I would love to get that done, because these inconsistent and non-standard
> codes repeatedly cause issues in various languages applications, the
> current big one being ContentTranslation.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


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Re: renaming Wikimedia domains

Alex Monk
In reply to this post by Jaime Crespo
On 26 August 2015 at 15:13, Jaime Crespo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> AFAIK It requires a patch, that is proposed (by Reedy,
> I think), but not implemented.

I'm not convinced that patch is needed. We already have $staticMappings in
multiversion which should allow the new domain to be pointed to the old
databases.


> DB dependencies on FlowDB, external storage and X1 plugins, plus some names
> inside the rows.

AFAIK these do not need to be changed. For example, www.mediawiki.org's
database name is mediawikiwiki, not wwwmediawiki. The same is true on x1,
the external storage clusters, and (for example) in localuser.lu_wiki in
the centralauth DB. It already has a domain name which does not match the
database name.
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Re: renaming Wikimedia domains

J. Zedlik
In reply to this post by This, that and the other
Thank you for raising the discussion!

On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 1:41 PM, This, that and the other <
[hidden email]> wrote:
> I also think many of the communities, especially if small, would view a
brief period of downtime as an acceptable tradeoff
> for having their domain name corrected. Especially "be-x-old", I've
always thought that one was pretty ugly, and wouldn't
> be surprised if the Taraškievica Belarusian Wikipedia community felt the
same way.

On behalf of the be-x-old community, I can ensure that such a rename is
really demanded and would find a great support, even if this causes hours
or days of downtime. If a formal community discussion on this topic is
required, it can definitely be arranged.

By the way, back in 2007, be-x-old was already renamed once, from be to
be-x-old. As far as I remember, this caused periods of downtime and
read-only, however eventually all the links, interwikis and templates were
corrected manually or semi-automatically, so this added some work but was
not a big problem back then.

Cheers,
zedlik


On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 1:41 PM, This, that and the other <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks for bringing this up, Amir.
>
> I would point out that since there are such a lot of wikis waiting to be
> renamed, there is an opportunity for economy of scale here. If all the
> departments/people you list were able to set aside a couple of days to sit
> down together and rename the 15+ wikis waiting to be renamed, having
> figured out a process and renamed a trial wiki beforehand, I think it could
> be made worthwhile.
>
> I also think many of the communities, especially if small, would view a
> brief period of downtime as an acceptable tradeoff for having their domain
> name corrected. Especially "be-x-old", I've always thought that one was
> pretty ugly, and wouldn't be surprised if the Taraškievica Belarusian
> Wikipedia community felt the same way.
>
> I agree that getting community engagement/community liaisons involved and
> talking with relevant developers/ops folks and the affected editing
> communities would be a good next step.
>
> TTO
>
> (Sorry for not replying inline: my news client is pretty dumb, as you can
> probably guess from the header line below.)
>
> --
> "Jaime Crespo"  wrote in message news:CABaSSrL0hm1T9sHd-qh1npK8J-OPUPttBr6_
> [hidden email]...
>
>
> (this is not an official response, just my opinion after some research on
> the topic)
>
> Due to internal (and growing) complexity of the mediawiki software, and WMF
> installation (regarding numerous plugins and services/servers), this is a
> non trivial task. It also involves many moving pieces and many people-
> network admins (dns), general operations (load control/downtime), dbas
> (import/export), services, deployment engineers and developers (mediawiki
> configuration changes, patches).
>
> What's worse, is that it would almost certainly create downtime for the
> wikis involved (not being able to edit) -specially given that it is not a
> common operation-, and some of them are smaller communities, and I would be
> worried be to annoy or discourage editing on those wikis (when we want the
> opposite!).
>
> It would be great to have someone in contact with the community so that we
> can identify which sites have a great consensus about renaming the wiki,
> and are perfectly informed about the potential problems and still are ok to
> go forward. Maybe someone in Community engagement can evaluate risks vs.
> return?
>
> On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 9:53 AM, Antoine Musso <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Le 26/08/2015 07:20, Amir E. Aharoni a écrit :
>> > In the past when requests to rename such domains were raised, the usual
>> > replies were along the lines of "it's impossible" or "it's not worth the
>> > technical effort", but I don't know the details.
>> >
>> > Is this still correct in 2015?
>>
>> As pointed out: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T21986
>>
>> For what it is worth, in 2011 JeLuF wrote a list of actions needed to
>> rename a wiki.  It is outdated nowadays but that is sufficient to state
>> renaming a wiki is a non-trivial task:
>> https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Rename_a_wiki
>>
>> It would surely consume a lot of engineering time to come up with a
>> proper migration plan and actually conduct them.  I am not sure it is
>> worth the time and money unfortunately.
>>
>> --
>> Antoine "hashar" Musso
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Jaime Crespo
> <http://wikimedia.org>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: renaming Wikimedia domains

Brian Wolff
In reply to this post by Jaime Crespo
On 8/26/15, Jaime Crespo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Alex Monk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure why database changes would be involved in a domain-only
>> change? It should be simple enough to get the new domain set up in DNS and
>> apache config, tell multiversion how to map it to the old DB name (there's
>> an array in setSiteInfoForWiki that does this bit), and once it's all
>>
>
> Not a developer, but AFAIK It requires a patch, that is proposed (by Reedy,
> I think), but not implemented. And there are other blockers like non-main
> DB dependencies on FlowDB, external storage and X1 plugins, plus some names
> inside the rows. But I am not the mediawiki expert. Feel free to contribute
> to the above mentioned tickets.
>
> --
> Jaime Crespo
> <http://wikimedia.org>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

I really don't know what in MediaWiki would be complicated. After all,
we used to serve stuff from secure.wikimedia.org, (A different domain)
and nothing exploded. The worst bit was it split parser cache due to
magic words like {{SERVER}}. If we can serve from two different
domains, surely we could serve from two domains, delete 1, and then
just serve from the new domain.

Actually renaming the database name would probably cause a lot of
problems, but I don't see why we would want to do that.

imo, Anywhere in MediaWiki proper (e.g. Not counting WMF's overly
complicated config management system [yeah yeah, technically part of
MW, but you get my drift...]) that would be broken by changing
domains, and wouldn't instantly be fixed by changing $wgServer, should
be considered a bug. I am unaware of any such bugs at this time.
--
-bawolff

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Re: renaming Wikimedia domains

Alex Monk
On 27 August 2015 at 04:57, Brian Wolff <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If we can serve from two different
> domains, surely we could serve from two domains, delete 1, and then
> just serve from the new domain.
>
That's my plan with https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/233972/ - I've added
it to the puppet SWAT window later today. When ops have approved it, it
should just be a case of me setting up MediaWiki to use the correct
database name, and then wgServer etc. can be changed and the old domain can
be redirected.
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Re: renaming Wikimedia domains

Chad
On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 9:02 PM Alex Monk <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 27 August 2015 at 04:57, Brian Wolff <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > If we can serve from two different
> > domains, surely we could serve from two domains, delete 1, and then
> > just serve from the new domain.
> >
> That's my plan with https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/233972/ - I've
> added
> it to the puppet SWAT window later today. When ops have approved it, it
> should just be a case of me setting up MediaWiki to use the correct
> database name, and then wgServer etc. can be changed and the old domain can
> be redirected.
>
>
Personally I've long thought that doing it this way (just swapping
the domain, leaving everything else identical) is the lazy way and
is likely to bite us in the ass later.

Otherwise: why the heck didn't we do it 10 years ago?

$staticMappings in Multiversion is a hack. I would be loathe to
extend the practice further.

-Chad
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Re: renaming Wikimedia domains

Amir E. Aharoni
2015-08-27 9:04 GMT+03:00 Chad <[hidden email]>:

> On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 9:02 PM Alex Monk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 27 August 2015 at 04:57, Brian Wolff <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > If we can serve from two different
> > > domains, surely we could serve from two domains, delete 1, and then
> > > just serve from the new domain.
> > >
> > That's my plan with https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/233972/ - I've
> > added
> > it to the puppet SWAT window later today. When ops have approved it, it
> > should just be a case of me setting up MediaWiki to use the correct
> > database name, and then wgServer etc. can be changed and the old domain
> can
> > be redirected.
> >
> >
> Personally I've long thought that doing it this way (just swapping
> the domain, leaving everything else identical) is the lazy way and
> is likely to bite us in the ass later.
>
> Otherwise: why the heck didn't we do it 10 years ago?
>
> $staticMappings in Multiversion is a hack. I would be loathe to
> extend the practice further.
>
>
> Indeed, and with ContentTranslation now we have no choice but to extend it:
https://git.wikimedia.org/blob/mediawiki%2Fextensions%2FContentTranslation/50f8eae8536e1dadb14ea129f6a2be02c240c72a/modules%2Fbase%2Fext.cx.sitemapper.js#L29

The way it's coded now will probably change soon, but the essence will
remain - we have to map back from correct codes to wrong domains to Make It
Work.
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