semantic forms + internal objects / subobjects

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semantic forms + internal objects / subobjects

Jar-Jar
Hi there,

I'm new to SMW and I hope you can help me out with this design issue.
I want the user to be able to manage a list of nameless semantic
entities. Using subobjects the result could be a page like this:

{{#subobject:su1
| first=bla
| second=bla
| ...
}}

{{#subobject:su2
| first=something
| second=something else
| ...
}}

...

{{#subobject:suN
| first=asdf
| second=xyz
| ...
}}

My questions:
1. How can I produce a form that lets the user create an arbitrary
number of these objects?
2. How can the user edit and delete those objects (through a form)?
3. Do Semantic Forms support editing lists at all? I noticed the
checkbox in Special:CreateTemplate for creating list fields, but it
doesn't seem to have any effect.
4. How stable is the whole subobjects feature so far? Should I use
internal objects instead?

5. Here is what I want to do more specifically: There are going to be a
bunch of entities and classes and the user should be able to add
statements about them. I want those statements be discrete objects
because they might be associated with a reference and because they might
be wrong and get deleted later. Is there a better way to implement this?


Thanks a lot for answers, links to sample implementations, suggested
readings....!

-m

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Re: semantic forms + internal objects / subobjects

Yaron Koren-2
Hi,

To answer the 1st and 2nd questions, the key is to put the #subobject or
#set_internal call in a template, and then add that template to the form as
a multiple-instance template:

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Semantic_Forms/Defining_forms#Multiple-instance_templates

The answer to the 3rd question is yes. :) If you look at the generated
template, it should have a call to #arraymap there.

-Yaron

On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 6:33 PM, Jar-Jar <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> I'm new to SMW and I hope you can help me out with this design issue.
> I want the user to be able to manage a list of nameless semantic
> entities. Using subobjects the result could be a page like this:
>
> {{#subobject:su1
> | first=bla
> | second=bla
> | ...
> }}
>
> {{#subobject:su2
> | first=something
> | second=something else
> | ...
> }}
>
> ...
>
> {{#subobject:suN
> | first=asdf
> | second=xyz
> | ...
> }}
>
> My questions:
> 1. How can I produce a form that lets the user create an arbitrary
> number of these objects?
> 2. How can the user edit and delete those objects (through a form)?
> 3. Do Semantic Forms support editing lists at all? I noticed the
> checkbox in Special:CreateTemplate for creating list fields, but it
> doesn't seem to have any effect.
> 4. How stable is the whole subobjects feature so far? Should I use
> internal objects instead?
>
> 5. Here is what I want to do more specifically: There are going to be a
> bunch of entities and classes and the user should be able to add
> statements about them. I want those statements be discrete objects
> because they might be associated with a reference and because they might
> be wrong and get deleted later. Is there a better way to implement this?
>
>
> Thanks a lot for answers, links to sample implementations, suggested
> readings....!
>
> -m
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Live Security Virtual Conference
> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
> _______________________________________________
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>



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Re: semantic forms + internal objects / subobjects

Jar-Jar
Hi,

thanks for your help and... another question:
I can now create via form a page with a list of subobjects. However I
can't display them. The factbox lists only one of them (since they all
have the same name?) and doesn't show any properties. Here is what I tried:

The template:
{{#subobject:su
| [[Category::SomeCategory]]
| ...
}}

The query:

{{#ask: [[Category::SomeCategory]]
| ...
}}

I created the category via CreateCategory, but it is always empty. The
query gives me no results plus I get:

* Some part "<nowiki>…</nowiki>" of the query was not understood.
* Some subquery has no valid condition.

Am I doing something wrong and is it at all possible for subobjects to
have categories?

Thanks a lot!

-m


On 11.05.2012 23:55, Yaron Koren wrote:

> Hi,
>
> To answer the 1st and 2nd questions, the key is to put the #subobject or
> #set_internal call in a template, and then add that template to the form
> as a multiple-instance template:
>
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Semantic_Forms/Defining_forms#Multiple-instance_templates
>
> The answer to the 3rd question is yes. :) If you look at the generated
> template, it should have a call to #arraymap there.
>
> -Yaron
>
> On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 6:33 PM, Jar-Jar <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Hi there,
>
>     I'm new to SMW and I hope you can help me out with this design issue.
>     I want the user to be able to manage a list of nameless semantic
>     entities. Using subobjects the result could be a page like this:
>
>     {{#subobject:su1
>     | first=bla
>     | second=bla
>     | ...
>     }}
>
>     {{#subobject:su2
>     | first=something
>     | second=something else
>     | ...
>     }}
>
>     ...
>
>     {{#subobject:suN
>     | first=asdf
>     | second=xyz
>     | ...
>     }}
>
>     My questions:
>     1. How can I produce a form that lets the user create an arbitrary
>     number of these objects?
>     2. How can the user edit and delete those objects (through a form)?
>     3. Do Semantic Forms support editing lists at all? I noticed the
>     checkbox in Special:CreateTemplate for creating list fields, but it
>     doesn't seem to have any effect.
>     4. How stable is the whole subobjects feature so far? Should I use
>     internal objects instead?
>
>     5. Here is what I want to do more specifically: There are going to be a
>     bunch of entities and classes and the user should be able to add
>     statements about them. I want those statements be discrete objects
>     because they might be associated with a reference and because they might
>     be wrong and get deleted later. Is there a better way to implement this?
>
>
>     Thanks a lot for answers, links to sample implementations, suggested
>     readings....!
>
>     -m
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     Live Security Virtual Conference
>     Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>     threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>     Discussions
>     will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>     malware
>     threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>     _______________________________________________
>     Semediawiki-user mailing list
>     [hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
>
>
>
>
> --
> WikiWorks · MediaWiki Consulting · http://wikiworks.com


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Re: semantic forms + internal objects / subobjects

Jar-Jar
Just figured out the syntax error (one column only after Category). The
category remains however empty...

On 30.05.2012 21:40, Jar-Jar wrote:

> Hi,
>
> thanks for your help and... another question:
> I can now create via form a page with a list of subobjects. However I
> can't display them. The factbox lists only one of them (since they all
> have the same name?) and doesn't show any properties. Here is what I tried:
>
> The template:
> {{#subobject:su
> | [[Category::SomeCategory]]
> | ...
> }}
>
> The query:
>
> {{#ask: [[Category::SomeCategory]]
> | ...
> }}
>
> I created the category via CreateCategory, but it is always empty. The
> query gives me no results plus I get:
>
> * Some part "<nowiki>…</nowiki>" of the query was not understood.
> * Some subquery has no valid condition.
>
> Am I doing something wrong and is it at all possible for subobjects to
> have categories?
>
> Thanks a lot!
>
> -m
>
>
> On 11.05.2012 23:55, Yaron Koren wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> To answer the 1st and 2nd questions, the key is to put the #subobject or
>> #set_internal call in a template, and then add that template to the form
>> as a multiple-instance template:
>>
>> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Semantic_Forms/Defining_forms#Multiple-instance_templates
>>
>> The answer to the 3rd question is yes. :) If you look at the generated
>> template, it should have a call to #arraymap there.
>>
>> -Yaron
>>
>> On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 6:33 PM, Jar-Jar<[hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>>  wrote:
>>
>>      Hi there,
>>
>>      I'm new to SMW and I hope you can help me out with this design issue.
>>      I want the user to be able to manage a list of nameless semantic
>>      entities. Using subobjects the result could be a page like this:
>>
>>      {{#subobject:su1
>>      | first=bla
>>      | second=bla
>>      | ...
>>      }}
>>
>>      {{#subobject:su2
>>      | first=something
>>      | second=something else
>>      | ...
>>      }}
>>
>>      ...
>>
>>      {{#subobject:suN
>>      | first=asdf
>>      | second=xyz
>>      | ...
>>      }}
>>
>>      My questions:
>>      1. How can I produce a form that lets the user create an arbitrary
>>      number of these objects?
>>      2. How can the user edit and delete those objects (through a form)?
>>      3. Do Semantic Forms support editing lists at all? I noticed the
>>      checkbox in Special:CreateTemplate for creating list fields, but it
>>      doesn't seem to have any effect.
>>      4. How stable is the whole subobjects feature so far? Should I use
>>      internal objects instead?
>>
>>      5. Here is what I want to do more specifically: There are going to be a
>>      bunch of entities and classes and the user should be able to add
>>      statements about them. I want those statements be discrete objects
>>      because they might be associated with a reference and because they might
>>      be wrong and get deleted later. Is there a better way to implement this?
>>
>>
>>      Thanks a lot for answers, links to sample implementations, suggested
>>      readings....!
>>
>>      -m
>>
>>      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>      Live Security Virtual Conference
>>      Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>      threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>>      Discussions
>>      will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>>      malware
>>      threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>      _______________________________________________
>>      Semediawiki-user mailing list
>>      [hidden email]
>>      <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>      https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> WikiWorks · MediaWiki Consulting · http://wikiworks.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Live Security Virtual Conference
> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
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Re: semantic forms + internal objects / subobjects

Yaron Koren-2
Hi,

What you set is a property named "Category". It's not actually a category,
and in fact you can't set categories via #subobject (or via SIO's
#set_internal either, for that matter.)

-Yaron

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Jar-Jar <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Just figured out the syntax error (one column only after Category). The
> category remains however empty...
>
> On 30.05.2012 21:40, Jar-Jar wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > thanks for your help and... another question:
> > I can now create via form a page with a list of subobjects. However I
> > can't display them. The factbox lists only one of them (since they all
> > have the same name?) and doesn't show any properties. Here is what I
> tried:
> >
> > The template:
> > {{#subobject:su
> > | [[Category::SomeCategory]]
> > | ...
> > }}
> >
> > The query:
> >
> > {{#ask: [[Category::SomeCategory]]
> > | ...
> > }}
> >
> > I created the category via CreateCategory, but it is always empty. The
> > query gives me no results plus I get:
> >
> > * Some part "<nowiki>…</nowiki>" of the query was not understood.
> > * Some subquery has no valid condition.
> >
> > Am I doing something wrong and is it at all possible for subobjects to
> > have categories?
> >
> > Thanks a lot!
> >
> > -m
> >
> >
> > On 11.05.2012 23:55, Yaron Koren wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> To answer the 1st and 2nd questions, the key is to put the #subobject or
> >> #set_internal call in a template, and then add that template to the form
> >> as a multiple-instance template:
> >>
> >>
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Semantic_Forms/Defining_forms#Multiple-instance_templates
> >>
> >> The answer to the 3rd question is yes. :) If you look at the generated
> >> template, it should have a call to #arraymap there.
> >>
> >> -Yaron
> >>
> >> On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 6:33 PM, Jar-Jar<[hidden email]
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]>>  wrote:
> >>
> >>      Hi there,
> >>
> >>      I'm new to SMW and I hope you can help me out with this design
> issue.
> >>      I want the user to be able to manage a list of nameless semantic
> >>      entities. Using subobjects the result could be a page like this:
> >>
> >>      {{#subobject:su1
> >>      | first=bla
> >>      | second=bla
> >>      | ...
> >>      }}
> >>
> >>      {{#subobject:su2
> >>      | first=something
> >>      | second=something else
> >>      | ...
> >>      }}
> >>
> >>      ...
> >>
> >>      {{#subobject:suN
> >>      | first=asdf
> >>      | second=xyz
> >>      | ...
> >>      }}
> >>
> >>      My questions:
> >>      1. How can I produce a form that lets the user create an arbitrary
> >>      number of these objects?
> >>      2. How can the user edit and delete those objects (through a form)?
> >>      3. Do Semantic Forms support editing lists at all? I noticed the
> >>      checkbox in Special:CreateTemplate for creating list fields, but it
> >>      doesn't seem to have any effect.
> >>      4. How stable is the whole subobjects feature so far? Should I use
> >>      internal objects instead?
> >>
> >>      5. Here is what I want to do more specifically: There are going to
> be a
> >>      bunch of entities and classes and the user should be able to add
> >>      statements about them. I want those statements be discrete objects
> >>      because they might be associated with a reference and because they
> might
> >>      be wrong and get deleted later. Is there a better way to implement
> this?
> >>
> >>
> >>      Thanks a lot for answers, links to sample implementations,
> suggested
> >>      readings....!
> >>
> >>      -m
> >>
> >>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>      Live Security Virtual Conference
> >>      Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
> >>      threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
> >>      Discussions
> >>      will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
> >>      malware
> >>      threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
> >>      _______________________________________________
> >>      Semediawiki-user mailing list
> >>      [hidden email]
> >>      <mailto:[hidden email]>
> >>      https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> WikiWorks · MediaWiki Consulting · http://wikiworks.com
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Live Security Virtual Conference
> > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
> > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
> > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
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>
>
>
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Re: semantic forms + internal objects / subobjects

Jar-Jar
Ah, ok. So how can I query internal objects then?
I'm thinking of something like this:

{{#ask: {{FULLPAGENAME}} [[hasSubobject::<sub>]]
  | Now list some property of <sub>.
}

Is this possible? I don't see how it could be done through property chains.

Thanks.
-m


On 30.05.2012 20:53, Yaron Koren wrote:
> Hi,
>
> What you set is a property named "Category". It's not actually a
> category, and in fact you can't set categories via #subobject (or via
> SIO's #set_internal either, for that matter.)
>

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Re: semantic forms + internal objects / subobjects

Yaron Koren-2
Hi,

The first argument to #subobject is a property that links the page to the
#subobject - that's what you need to use. In your code example before, you
had "su" there, but really it should be something like "hasSubobject". Then
you can do a query like:

{{#ask:-hasSubobject::{{PAGENAME}}|...}}

Note the "-" in there - that's very important.

-Yaron

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 4:56 PM, Jar-Jar <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Ah, ok. So how can I query internal objects then?
> I'm thinking of something like this:
>
> {{#ask: {{FULLPAGENAME}} [[hasSubobject::<sub>]]
>  | Now list some property of <sub>.
> }
>
> Is this possible? I don't see how it could be done through property chains.
>
> Thanks.
> -m
>
>
> On 30.05.2012 20:53, Yaron Koren wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > What you set is a property named "Category". It's not actually a
> > category, and in fact you can't set categories via #subobject (or via
> > SIO's #set_internal either, for that matter.)
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Live Security Virtual Conference
> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
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> _______________________________________________
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Re: semantic forms + internal objects / subobjects

Jar-Jar
Hi,

thanks for your patience with me so far - it still doesn't work :(

For the proposed query I get
* The part "-hasSubobject" of the query was not understood. Results might not be as expected.

What does the minus mean and - more importantly - where can I learn about it? I read through inline queries, query strings and most of RFC subobjects, but I didn't encounter this kind of syntax...?

-m
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Re: semantic forms + internal objects / subobjects

Jar-Jar
Update: I found out about inverse properties in the release notes. My code looks like this now:

Template:myTemplate:

<includeonly>
{{#subobject:su
| p={{{p}}}
}}
</includeonly>


TestPage :

{{myTemplate
| p=blabla
}
{{myTemplate
| p=blublub
}
etc....
{{#ask: [[-Has subobject:{{FULLPAGENAME}}]]
| ?p
| default=no results
}}

I tried replacing "Has subobject" by "su" as suggested  - in both cases I get no results. In the factbox and Special:Browse the data structure looks fine. Any clues?

Thanks.
-m

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Re: semantic forms + internal objects / subobjects

Jar-Jar
Yet another update: I got it working.
However the query treats all subobjects of the same name as one object, which renders the whole feature useless to me. Example:

{{#subobject:sub
| p=pA
| q=qA
}}

{{#subobject:sub
| p=pB
| q=qB
}}

{{#ask: [[-Has subobject::{{FULLPAGENAME}}]]
| ?p
| ?q
}}

This works, the result is however:
__________________________
| TestPage#sub | pA | qB |
|              | pB | qA |
--------------------------

The problem is that one line of property values does not correspond to one particular subobject :(
I was expecting a different behavior, since the factbox lists all subobjects distinctly.

-m
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Re: semantic forms + internal objects / subobjects

Yaron Koren-2
Hi,

I don't understand how this is possible - you have "sub" in the #subobject
call, but you were able to query on "Has subobject" and it worked? Where is
"Has subobject" getting stored?

-Yaron

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 9:01 AM, Martin R. <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Yet another update: I got it working.
> However the query treats all subobjects of the same name as one object,
> which renders the whole feature useless to me. Example:
>
> {{#subobject:sub
> | p=pA
> | q=qA
> }}
>
> {{#subobject:sub
> | p=pB
> | q=qB
> }}
>
> {{#ask: [[-Has subobject::{{FULLPAGENAME}}]]
> | ?p
> | ?q
> }}
>
> This works, the result is however:
> __________________________
> | TestPage#sub | pA | qB |
> |              | pB | qA |
> --------------------------
>
> The problem is that one line of property values does not correspond to one
> particular subobject :(
> I was expecting a different behavior, since the factbox lists all
> subobjects distinctly.
>
> -m
> --
> Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
> belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
>
>
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> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
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> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
>



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Re: semantic forms + internal objects / subobjects

Jar-Jar
Apparently a subobject is always associated to the page it is defined in
by the built-in property "Has subobject". So in my example [[Has
subobject::TestPage#sub]] holds. I use SMW 1.7.1.
What I'm actually looking for is RDF reification or blank nodes - do you
know if there is anything else to model this? Like, without having to
create one page per statement?

-m

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Re: semantic forms + internal objects / subobjects

Yaron Koren-2
Hi,

Oops, you're right - I had forgotten how #subobject works.

So, I think the issue is that you need to give a unique name to each
subobject (what you currently have as "sub" in both calls). You actually
had it the right way in your original question, with "sub1", "sub2", etc.
If the issue is getting a unique number for every template instance, this
extension might help:

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:NumerAlpha

-Yaron

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 8:56 PM, Jar-Jar <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Apparently a subobject is always associated to the page it is defined in
> by the built-in property "Has subobject". So in my example [[Has
> subobject::TestPage#sub]] holds. I use SMW 1.7.1.
> What I'm actually looking for is RDF reification or blank nodes - do you
> know if there is anything else to model this? Like, without having to
> create one page per statement?
>
> -m
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Live Security Virtual Conference
> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
> _______________________________________________
> Semediawiki-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
>



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