smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?

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smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?

James HK
Hi,

I'm calling for some opinions on replacing the "old" Vector skin on
smw.org with something fresh. Stephan in his relentless pursuit of
making MediaWiki more usable to non-Wikipedia users created the
Chameleon skin [0] which seems more suitable to those who want to use
MW/SMW in different environments.

SMW no longer tries to be a product that seeks to fulfil requirements
from either WMF or Wikipedia to be used as encyclopaedic semantic
content management (that's now the job of Wikidata/Wikibase) therefore
using the "Vector" skin somehow appears to be outdated by trying to
look like the good old Wikipedia site.

Furthermore, MW 1.24 (to be released soon) made some changes on how
skins are deployed [1] and it might be a good time to say farewell to
the "old" skin and rediscover SMW's identity by changing its
appearance.

[0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Chameleon
[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.24#Skins_no_longer_loaded_after_upgrade.3F

Cheers

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Re: [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?

Mark A. Hershberger-4
> [0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Chameleon

+1 for the Chameleon skin.


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Re: smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?

planetenxin
In reply to this post by James HK
+1 for Chameleon

/Alexander


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Re: smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?

Markus Krötzsch-2
In reply to this post by James HK
Hi,

Good idea. Chameleon is great (also because of the nice Bootstrap
styling that becomes available on all pages). I am using it right now to
build a site (to be published soon).

A big advantage with Chameleon is that most customizations happen in CSS
or by inserting HTML into the page through configuration files. so there
are fewer dependencies on how MW does their skinning in PHP -- assuming
that Chameleon is always updated to support this properly.

My only concern would be that Chameleon is still classified Beta. It
would be good to know if we can hope for future support for this if we
switch now.

Cheers,

Markus

On 16.10.2014 19:52, James HK wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm calling for some opinions on replacing the "old" Vector skin on
> smw.org with something fresh. Stephan in his relentless pursuit of
> making MediaWiki more usable to non-Wikipedia users created the
> Chameleon skin [0] which seems more suitable to those who want to use
> MW/SMW in different environments.
>
> SMW no longer tries to be a product that seeks to fulfil requirements
> from either WMF or Wikipedia to be used as encyclopaedic semantic
> content management (that's now the job of Wikidata/Wikibase) therefore
> using the "Vector" skin somehow appears to be outdated by trying to
> look like the good old Wikipedia site.
>
> Furthermore, MW 1.24 (to be released soon) made some changes on how
> skins are deployed [1] and it might be a good time to say farewell to
> the "old" skin and rediscover SMW's identity by changing its
> appearance.
>
> [0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Chameleon
> [1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.24#Skins_no_longer_loaded_after_upgrade.3F
>
> Cheers
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7.
> Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month.
> Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push notifications.
> Take corrective actions from your mobile device.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/Zoho
> _______________________________________________
> Semediawiki-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
>


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Re: [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?

Stephan Gambke-2
Well, I plan to maintain the skin for a while yet, not least because I
use it myself.

I want to finally release a version 1.0 this weekend. Should have done
that a long time ago, but always put it off. There is one major issue
left that I want to fix before, which is the un-responsiveness of the
navbar. Should not be too hard to do, somebody recently sent me some
code I think I can use. :)

There are some rough edges left, but they are mostly related to
styling of special pages and the like and should be easy to fix
(patches welcome).

Cheers,
Stephan

On 17 October 2014 10:40, Markus Krötzsch <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Good idea. Chameleon is great (also because of the nice Bootstrap
> styling that becomes available on all pages). I am using it right now to
> build a site (to be published soon).
>
> A big advantage with Chameleon is that most customizations happen in CSS
> or by inserting HTML into the page through configuration files. so there
> are fewer dependencies on how MW does their skinning in PHP -- assuming
> that Chameleon is always updated to support this properly.
>
> My only concern would be that Chameleon is still classified Beta. It
> would be good to know if we can hope for future support for this if we
> switch now.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Markus
>
> On 16.10.2014 19:52, James HK wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm calling for some opinions on replacing the "old" Vector skin on
>> smw.org with something fresh. Stephan in his relentless pursuit of
>> making MediaWiki more usable to non-Wikipedia users created the
>> Chameleon skin [0] which seems more suitable to those who want to use
>> MW/SMW in different environments.
>>
>> SMW no longer tries to be a product that seeks to fulfil requirements
>> from either WMF or Wikipedia to be used as encyclopaedic semantic
>> content management (that's now the job of Wikidata/Wikibase) therefore
>> using the "Vector" skin somehow appears to be outdated by trying to
>> look like the good old Wikipedia site.
>>
>> Furthermore, MW 1.24 (to be released soon) made some changes on how
>> skins are deployed [1] and it might be a good time to say farewell to
>> the "old" skin and rediscover SMW's identity by changing its
>> appearance.
>>
>> [0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Chameleon
>> [1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.24#Skins_no_longer_loaded_after_upgrade.3F
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7.
>> Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month.
>> Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push notifications.
>> Take corrective actions from your mobile device.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/Zoho
>> _______________________________________________
>> Semediawiki-user mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7.
> Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month.
> Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push notifications.
> Take corrective actions from your mobile device.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/Zoho
> _______________________________________________
> Semediawiki-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel

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Re: [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?

Krabina Bernhard
+1 for chameleon

Bernhard

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Re: [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?

Stephan Gambke-2
In reply to this post by Stephan Gambke-2
One more thing worth considering: The Bootstrap framework is not
designed to support as extensive a range of browsers as Vector. [1]
"Bootstrap is built to work best in the latest desktop and mobile
browsers, meaning older browsers might display differently styled,
though fully functional, renderings of certain components."  They do
not even officially support any Linux browsers, although
"Unofficially, Bootstrap should look and behave well enough in
Chromium and Chrome for Linux, Firefox for Linux, and Internet
Explorer 7". And as far as I can tell, that's true.

And we can still keep Vector or MonoBook available in the preferences
so that users behind corporate firewalls who are not allowed to
upgrade their IE beyond version 6 have a fallback.

[1] http://getbootstrap.com/getting-started/#support

On 17 October 2014 11:58, Stephan Gambke <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Well, I plan to maintain the skin for a while yet, not least because I
> use it myself.
>
> I want to finally release a version 1.0 this weekend. Should have done
> that a long time ago, but always put it off. There is one major issue
> left that I want to fix before, which is the un-responsiveness of the
> navbar. Should not be too hard to do, somebody recently sent me some
> code I think I can use. :)
>
> There are some rough edges left, but they are mostly related to
> styling of special pages and the like and should be easy to fix
> (patches welcome).
>
> Cheers,
> Stephan
>
> On 17 October 2014 10:40, Markus Krötzsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Good idea. Chameleon is great (also because of the nice Bootstrap
>> styling that becomes available on all pages). I am using it right now to
>> build a site (to be published soon).
>>
>> A big advantage with Chameleon is that most customizations happen in CSS
>> or by inserting HTML into the page through configuration files. so there
>> are fewer dependencies on how MW does their skinning in PHP -- assuming
>> that Chameleon is always updated to support this properly.
>>
>> My only concern would be that Chameleon is still classified Beta. It
>> would be good to know if we can hope for future support for this if we
>> switch now.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Markus
>>
>> On 16.10.2014 19:52, James HK wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'm calling for some opinions on replacing the "old" Vector skin on
>>> smw.org with something fresh. Stephan in his relentless pursuit of
>>> making MediaWiki more usable to non-Wikipedia users created the
>>> Chameleon skin [0] which seems more suitable to those who want to use
>>> MW/SMW in different environments.
>>>
>>> SMW no longer tries to be a product that seeks to fulfil requirements
>>> from either WMF or Wikipedia to be used as encyclopaedic semantic
>>> content management (that's now the job of Wikidata/Wikibase) therefore
>>> using the "Vector" skin somehow appears to be outdated by trying to
>>> look like the good old Wikipedia site.
>>>
>>> Furthermore, MW 1.24 (to be released soon) made some changes on how
>>> skins are deployed [1] and it might be a good time to say farewell to
>>> the "old" skin and rediscover SMW's identity by changing its
>>> appearance.
>>>
>>> [0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Chameleon
>>> [1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.24#Skins_no_longer_loaded_after_upgrade.3F
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7.
>>> Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month.
>>> Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push notifications.
>>> Take corrective actions from your mobile device.
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/Zoho
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Semediawiki-user mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7.
>> Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month.
>> Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push notifications.
>> Take corrective actions from your mobile device.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/Zoho
>> _______________________________________________
>> Semediawiki-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel

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Re: [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?

Tom Kronenburg
+1 for chameleon.

Met vriendelijke groet,
Tom Kronenburg



drs. T. Kronenburg

Twitter: @pblq        LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/company/pblq        Tom Kronenburg: http://nl.linkedin.com/in/tomkronenburg

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-----Original Message-----
From: Stephan Gambke [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: vrijdag 17 oktober 2014 12:34
To: Markus Krötzsch
Cc: Semantic MediaWiki developers; Semantic MediaWiki users
Subject: Re: [Semediawiki-user] [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?

One more thing worth considering: The Bootstrap framework is not designed to support as extensive a range of browsers as Vector. [1] "Bootstrap is built to work best in the latest desktop and mobile browsers, meaning older browsers might display differently styled, though fully functional, renderings of certain components."  They do not even officially support any Linux browsers, although "Unofficially, Bootstrap should look and behave well enough in Chromium and Chrome for Linux, Firefox for Linux, and Internet Explorer 7". And as far as I can tell, that's true.

And we can still keep Vector or MonoBook available in the preferences so that users behind corporate firewalls who are not allowed to upgrade their IE beyond version 6 have a fallback.

[1] http://getbootstrap.com/getting-started/#support

On 17 October 2014 11:58, Stephan Gambke <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Well, I plan to maintain the skin for a while yet, not least because I
> use it myself.
>
> I want to finally release a version 1.0 this weekend. Should have done
> that a long time ago, but always put it off. There is one major issue
> left that I want to fix before, which is the un-responsiveness of the
> navbar. Should not be too hard to do, somebody recently sent me some
> code I think I can use. :)
>
> There are some rough edges left, but they are mostly related to
> styling of special pages and the like and should be easy to fix
> (patches welcome).
>
> Cheers,
> Stephan
>
> On 17 October 2014 10:40, Markus Krötzsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Good idea. Chameleon is great (also because of the nice Bootstrap
>> styling that becomes available on all pages). I am using it right now
>> to build a site (to be published soon).
>>
>> A big advantage with Chameleon is that most customizations happen in
>> CSS or by inserting HTML into the page through configuration files.
>> so there are fewer dependencies on how MW does their skinning in PHP
>> -- assuming that Chameleon is always updated to support this properly.
>>
>> My only concern would be that Chameleon is still classified Beta. It
>> would be good to know if we can hope for future support for this if
>> we switch now.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Markus
>>
>> On 16.10.2014 19:52, James HK wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'm calling for some opinions on replacing the "old" Vector skin on
>>> smw.org with something fresh. Stephan in his relentless pursuit of
>>> making MediaWiki more usable to non-Wikipedia users created the
>>> Chameleon skin [0] which seems more suitable to those who want to
>>> use MW/SMW in different environments.
>>>
>>> SMW no longer tries to be a product that seeks to fulfil
>>> requirements from either WMF or Wikipedia to be used as
>>> encyclopaedic semantic content management (that's now the job of
>>> Wikidata/Wikibase) therefore using the "Vector" skin somehow appears
>>> to be outdated by trying to look like the good old Wikipedia site.
>>>
>>> Furthermore, MW 1.24 (to be released soon) made some changes on how
>>> skins are deployed [1] and it might be a good time to say farewell
>>> to the "old" skin and rediscover SMW's identity by changing its
>>> appearance.
>>>
>>> [0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Chameleon
>>> [1]
>>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.24#Skins_no_longer_loaded
>>> _after_upgrade.3F
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ---------- Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7.
>>> Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month.
>>> Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push notifications.
>>> Take corrective actions from your mobile device.
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/Zoho
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Semediawiki-user mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------- Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7.
>> Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month.
>> Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push notifications.
>> Take corrective actions from your mobile device.
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>> _______________________________________________
>> Semediawiki-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel

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Re: [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?

Cavila Contrafibularity
Chameleon seems like a good choice.

Would like to try it out, but there's a bug in the installation process (the git file from Git cannot be cloned using Composer).

Cav

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 12:59:00 +0000
> CC: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Semediawiki-user] [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?
>
> +1 for chameleon.
>
> Met vriendelijke groet,
> Tom Kronenburg
>
>
>
> drs. T. Kronenburg
>
> Twitter: @pblq        LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/company/pblq        Tom Kronenburg: http://nl.linkedin.com/in/tomkronenburg
>
> PBLQ | Voor een sterke publieke sector
> Postbus 18607 | 2502 EP Den Haag | Van de Spiegelstraat 12 | 2518 ET Den Haag | T: 070 376 36 36 | F: 070 351 52 82 | M: 06 55 77 83 53 | I: www.pblq.nl | KvK: 27344793 | Disclaimer: http://www.pblq.nl/disclaimer
>
> TNS Nipo onderzoek: PBLQ ROI de beste dienstverlener opleiding en training: http://www.pblq.nl/roi/pblq-roi/pblq-roi-beste-opleider-publieke-sector
>
> Wilt u op de hoogte blijven van de activiteiten van PBLQ? Meld u aan voor de PBLQ nieuwsbrief via: http://www.pblq.nl/formulieren/nieuwsbrief
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephan Gambke [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: vrijdag 17 oktober 2014 12:34
> To: Markus Krötzsch
> Cc: Semantic MediaWiki developers; Semantic MediaWiki users
> Subject: Re: [Semediawiki-user] [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?
>
> One more thing worth considering: The Bootstrap framework is not designed to support as extensive a range of browsers as Vector. [1] "Bootstrap is built to work best in the latest desktop and mobile browsers, meaning older browsers might display differently styled, though fully functional, renderings of certain components."  They do not even officially support any Linux browsers, although "Unofficially, Bootstrap should look and behave well enough in Chromium and Chrome for Linux, Firefox for Linux, and Internet Explorer 7". And as far as I can tell, that's true.
>
> And we can still keep Vector or MonoBook available in the preferences so that users behind corporate firewalls who are not allowed to upgrade their IE beyond version 6 have a fallback.
>
> [1] http://getbootstrap.com/getting-started/#support
>
> On 17 October 2014 11:58, Stephan Gambke <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Well, I plan to maintain the skin for a while yet, not least because I
> > use it myself.
> >
> > I want to finally release a version 1.0 this weekend. Should have done
> > that a long time ago, but always put it off. There is one major issue
> > left that I want to fix before, which is the un-responsiveness of the
> > navbar. Should not be too hard to do, somebody recently sent me some
> > code I think I can use. :)
> >
> > There are some rough edges left, but they are mostly related to
> > styling of special pages and the like and should be easy to fix
> > (patches welcome).
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Stephan
> >
> > On 17 October 2014 10:40, Markus Krötzsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Good idea. Chameleon is great (also because of the nice Bootstrap
> >> styling that becomes available on all pages). I am using it right now
> >> to build a site (to be published soon).
> >>
> >> A big advantage with Chameleon is that most customizations happen in
> >> CSS or by inserting HTML into the page through configuration files.
> >> so there are fewer dependencies on how MW does their skinning in PHP
> >> -- assuming that Chameleon is always updated to support this properly.
> >>
> >> My only concern would be that Chameleon is still classified Beta. It
> >> would be good to know if we can hope for future support for this if
> >> we switch now.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Markus
> >>
> >> On 16.10.2014 19:52, James HK wrote:
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> I'm calling for some opinions on replacing the "old" Vector skin on
> >>> smw.org with something fresh. Stephan in his relentless pursuit of
> >>> making MediaWiki more usable to non-Wikipedia users created the
> >>> Chameleon skin [0] which seems more suitable to those who want to
> >>> use MW/SMW in different environments.
> >>>
> >>> SMW no longer tries to be a product that seeks to fulfil
> >>> requirements from either WMF or Wikipedia to be used as
> >>> encyclopaedic semantic content management (that's now the job of
> >>> Wikidata/Wikibase) therefore using the "Vector" skin somehow appears
> >>> to be outdated by trying to look like the good old Wikipedia site.
> >>>
> >>> Furthermore, MW 1.24 (to be released soon) made some changes on how
> >>> skins are deployed [1] and it might be a good time to say farewell
> >>> to the "old" skin and rediscover SMW's identity by changing its
> >>> appearance.
> >>>
> >>> [0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Chameleon
> >>> [1]
> >>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.24#Skins_no_longer_loaded
> >>> _after_upgrade.3F
> >>>
> >>> Cheers
> >>>
> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> ---------- Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7.
> >>> Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month.
> >>> Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push notifications.
> >>> Take corrective actions from your mobile device.
> >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/Zoho
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Semediawiki-user mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> --------- Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7.
> >> Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month.
> >> Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push notifications.
> >> Take corrective actions from your mobile device.
> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/Zoho
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Semediawiki-devel mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7.
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Re: [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?

Stephan Gambke-2
Hi.


On 17 October 2014 16:40, Cavila <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Would like to try it out, but there's a bug in the installation process (the
> git file from Git cannot be cloned using Composer).

Is that the actual error message (Google did not find it)? And
following the instructions on [1] at what point exactly did you get
stuck?

Stephan


[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Chameleon#Installation

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Re: [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?

Cavila Contrafibularity
Hi Stephan,

It's step #5, which fails with the following error message:

"[RuntimeException] Failed to clone https://git.wikimedia.org/git/mediawiki/extensions/Bootstrap.git, git was not found, check that it is installed and in your PATH env. 'git' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file."

There is no page with that URL, at least no such page that can be visited using a browser, so could there be a typo?

Best,

Cav


> From: [hidden email]
> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 16:49:50 +0200
> Subject: Re: [Semediawiki-user] [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?
> To: [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
>
> Hi.
>
>
> On 17 October 2014 16:40, Cavila <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Would like to try it out, but there's a bug in the installation process (the
> > git file from Git cannot be cloned using Composer).
>
> Is that the actual error message (Google did not find it)? And
> following the instructions on [1] at what point exactly did you get
> stuck?
>
> Stephan
>
>
> [1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Chameleon#Installation
     
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Re: [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?

Stephan Gambke-2
Could you try
 composer require --prefer-dist mediawiki/chameleon-skin "~1.0"

Apparently composer uses download from git by default for development
versions (which are the only available versions of Chameleon right
now).

On 17 October 2014 20:56, Cavila <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Stephan,
>
> It's step #5, which fails with the following error message:
>
> "[RuntimeException] Failed to clone
> https://git.wikimedia.org/git/mediawiki/extensions/Bootstrap.git, git was
> not found, check that it is installed and in your PATH env. 'git' is not
> recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch
> file."
>
> There is no page with that URL, at least no such page that can be visited
> using a browser, so could there be a typo?
>
> Best,
>
> Cav
>
>
>> From: [hidden email]
>> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 16:49:50 +0200
>> Subject: Re: [Semediawiki-user] [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old"
>> Vector skin?
>> To: [hidden email]
>> CC: [hidden email];
>> [hidden email]
>
>>
>> Hi.
>>
>>
>> On 17 October 2014 16:40, Cavila <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > Would like to try it out, but there's a bug in the installation process
>> > (the
>> > git file from Git cannot be cloned using Composer).
>>
>> Is that the actual error message (Google did not find it)? And
>> following the instructions on [1] at what point exactly did you get
>> stuck?
>>
>> Stephan
>>
>>
>> [1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Chameleon#Installation

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Re: [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?

Tom Hutchison
One thing which might not be apparent.

You will have to make a design choice with the core format of SMW pages. Responsive layout and tables do not mix together well. So, what may look good in Vector or Monobook might not look so well with a responsive skin. Or vice versa as the case may be.

Big consideration with many of the SMW pages using tables for output examples.

Tom


> On Oct 17, 2014, at 3:07 PM, Stephan Gambke <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Could you try
> composer require --prefer-dist mediawiki/chameleon-skin "~1.0"
>
> Apparently composer uses download from git by default for development
> versions (which are the only available versions of Chameleon right
> now).
>
>> On 17 October 2014 20:56, Cavila <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi Stephan,
>>
>> It's step #5, which fails with the following error message:
>>
>> "[RuntimeException] Failed to clone
>> https://git.wikimedia.org/git/mediawiki/extensions/Bootstrap.git, git was
>> not found, check that it is installed and in your PATH env. 'git' is not
>> recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch
>> file."
>>
>> There is no page with that URL, at least no such page that can be visited
>> using a browser, so could there be a typo?
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Cav
>>
>>
>>> From: [hidden email]
>>> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 16:49:50 +0200
>>> Subject: Re: [Semediawiki-user] [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old"
>>> Vector skin?
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> CC: [hidden email];
>>> [hidden email]
>>
>>>
>>> Hi.
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 17 October 2014 16:40, Cavila <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Would like to try it out, but there's a bug in the installation process
>>>> (the
>>>> git file from Git cannot be cloned using Composer).
>>>
>>> Is that the actual error message (Google did not find it)? And
>>> following the instructions on [1] at what point exactly did you get
>>> stuck?
>>>
>>> Stephan
>>>
>>>
>>> [1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Chameleon#Installation
>
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Re: [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?

Cavila Contrafibularity
In reply to this post by Stephan Gambke-2
Apologies for the delay. MySQL crashed after my last attempt, but that's sorted out. I fed this to the machine:  
 
composer require --prefer-dist mediawiki/chameleon-skin "~1.0"
(which then tries to install v1.0.1)

but installation breaks off with the same error message. Same thing with --prefer-source

Best,
Cav


> From: [hidden email]
> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 21:07:24 +0200
> Subject: Re: [Semediawiki-user] [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?
> To: [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
>
> Could you try
>  composer require --prefer-dist mediawiki/chameleon-skin "~1.0"
>
> Apparently composer uses download from git by default for development
> versions (which are the only available versions of Chameleon right
> now).
>
> On 17 October 2014 20:56, Cavila <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi Stephan,
> >
> > It's step #5, which fails with the following error message:
> >
> > "[RuntimeException] Failed to clone
> > https://git.wikimedia.org/git/mediawiki/extensions/Bootstrap.git, git was
> > not found, check that it is installed and in your PATH env. 'git' is not
> > recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch
> > file."
> >
> > There is no page with that URL, at least no such page that can be visited
> > using a browser, so could there be a typo?
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Cav
> >
> >
> >> From: [hidden email]
> >> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 16:49:50 +0200
> >> Subject: Re: [Semediawiki-user] [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old"
> >> Vector skin?
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >> CC: [hidden email];
> >> [hidden email]
> >
> >>
> >> Hi.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 17 October 2014 16:40, Cavila <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> > Would like to try it out, but there's a bug in the installation process
> >> > (the
> >> > git file from Git cannot be cloned using Composer).
> >>
> >> Is that the actual error message (Google did not find it)? And
> >> following the instructions on [1] at what point exactly did you get
> >> stuck?
> >>
> >> Stephan
> >>
> >>
> >> [1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Chameleon#Installation
     
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Re: [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?

Cavila Contrafibularity
If anyone was wondering, all that was needed to get Chameleon up and running was to install Git first. The installation went smoothly after this.

Cav

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2014 12:31:05 +0100
> CC: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Semediawiki-user] [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?
>
> Apologies for the delay. MySQL crashed after my last attempt, but that's sorted out. I fed this to the machine:  
>  
> composer require --prefer-dist mediawiki/chameleon-skin "~1.0"
> (which then tries to install v1.0.1)
>
> but installation breaks off with the same error message. Same thing with --prefer-source
>
> Best,
> Cav
>
>
> > From: [hidden email]
> > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 21:07:24 +0200
> > Subject: Re: [Semediawiki-user] [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?
> > To: [hidden email]
> > CC: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> >
> > Could you try
> >  composer require --prefer-dist mediawiki/chameleon-skin "~1.0"
> >
> > Apparently composer uses download from git by default for development
> > versions (which are the only available versions of Chameleon right
> > now).
> >
> > On 17 October 2014 20:56, Cavila <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Hi Stephan,
> > >
> > > It's step #5, which fails with the following error message:
> > >
> > > "[RuntimeException] Failed to clone
> > > https://git.wikimedia.org/git/mediawiki/extensions/Bootstrap.git, git was
> > > not found, check that it is installed and in your PATH env. 'git' is not
> > > recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch
> > > file."
> > >
> > > There is no page with that URL, at least no such page that can be visited
> > > using a browser, so could there be a typo?
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Cav
> > >
> > >
> > >> From: [hidden email]
> > >> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 16:49:50 +0200
> > >> Subject: Re: [Semediawiki-user] [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old"
> > >> Vector skin?
> > >> To: [hidden email]
> > >> CC: [hidden email];
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Hi.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 17 October 2014 16:40, Cavila <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >> > Would like to try it out, but there's a bug in the installation process
> > >> > (the
> > >> > git file from Git cannot be cloned using Composer).
> > >>
> > >> Is that the actual error message (Google did not find it)? And
> > >> following the instructions on [1] at what point exactly did you get
> > >> stuck?
> > >>
> > >> Stephan
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> [1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Chameleon#Installation
>      
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Re: [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?

Krabina Bernhard
In reply to this post by Stephan Gambke-2
Hi,

regardless of the skin used, I think it's worthwile to have a look at some sites we should aim to match regarding their appearance, e. g.

http://www.drupal.org/
https://wordpress.org/
http://www.joomla.org/
https://www.atlassian.com/

cheers,
Bernhard

----- Am 17. Okt 2014 um 11:58 schrieb Stephan Gambke [hidden email]:

> Well, I plan to maintain the skin for a while yet, not least because I
> use it myself.
>
> I want to finally release a version 1.0 this weekend. Should have done
> that a long time ago, but always put it off. There is one major issue
> left that I want to fix before, which is the un-responsiveness of the
> navbar. Should not be too hard to do, somebody recently sent me some
> code I think I can use. :)
>
> There are some rough edges left, but they are mostly related to
> styling of special pages and the like and should be easy to fix
> (patches welcome).
>
> Cheers,
> Stephan
>
> On 17 October 2014 10:40, Markus Krötzsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Good idea. Chameleon is great (also because of the nice Bootstrap
>> styling that becomes available on all pages). I am using it right now to
>> build a site (to be published soon).
>>
>> A big advantage with Chameleon is that most customizations happen in CSS
>> or by inserting HTML into the page through configuration files. so there
>> are fewer dependencies on how MW does their skinning in PHP -- assuming
>> that Chameleon is always updated to support this properly.
>>
>> My only concern would be that Chameleon is still classified Beta. It
>> would be good to know if we can hope for future support for this if we
>> switch now.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Markus
>>
>> On 16.10.2014 19:52, James HK wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'm calling for some opinions on replacing the "old" Vector skin on
>>> smw.org with something fresh. Stephan in his relentless pursuit of
>>> making MediaWiki more usable to non-Wikipedia users created the
>>> Chameleon skin [0] which seems more suitable to those who want to use
>>> MW/SMW in different environments.
>>>
>>> SMW no longer tries to be a product that seeks to fulfil requirements
>>> from either WMF or Wikipedia to be used as encyclopaedic semantic
>>> content management (that's now the job of Wikidata/Wikibase) therefore
>>> using the "Vector" skin somehow appears to be outdated by trying to
>>> look like the good old Wikipedia site.
>>>
>>> Furthermore, MW 1.24 (to be released soon) made some changes on how
>>> skins are deployed [1] and it might be a good time to say farewell to
>>> the "old" skin and rediscover SMW's identity by changing its
>>> appearance.
>>>
>>> [0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Chameleon
>>> [1]
>>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.24#Skins_no_longer_loaded_after_upgrade.3F
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7.
>>> Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month.
>>> Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push notifications.
>>> Take corrective actions from your mobile device.
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>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
>>>
>>
>>
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>
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Re: [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?

Markus Krötzsch-2
On 20.10.2014 09:05, Krabina Bernhard wrote:
> Hi,
>
> regardless of the skin used, I think it's worthwile to have a look at some sites we should aim to match regarding their appearance, e. g.
>
> http://www.drupal.org/
> https://wordpress.org/
> http://www.joomla.org/
> https://www.atlassian.com/

You are right. We really need to up our game there a little in terms of
professional appearance. Looking at these very professional websites
(and taking into account how much time it takes to do such a thing
properly), we need to think about how to implement this. We do have a
number of powerful components available (Chameleon, all the Bootstrap
basics, I also have some not-yet-released extra code to use further
Bootstrap features on the Wiki), but it will still be work to use that
on our site (change table-based layouts on wiki pages; choose fonts,
colours, images, and textures; style key elements; redesign site
navigation to go with a collapsing menu, ...). How could we best move
forward to put this into practice, ideally before the end of this year?

Cheers,

Markus


> ----- Am 17. Okt 2014 um 11:58 schrieb Stephan Gambke [hidden email]:
>
>> Well, I plan to maintain the skin for a while yet, not least because I
>> use it myself.
>>
>> I want to finally release a version 1.0 this weekend. Should have done
>> that a long time ago, but always put it off. There is one major issue
>> left that I want to fix before, which is the un-responsiveness of the
>> navbar. Should not be too hard to do, somebody recently sent me some
>> code I think I can use. :)
>>
>> There are some rough edges left, but they are mostly related to
>> styling of special pages and the like and should be easy to fix
>> (patches welcome).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Stephan
>>
>> On 17 October 2014 10:40, Markus Krötzsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Good idea. Chameleon is great (also because of the nice Bootstrap
>>> styling that becomes available on all pages). I am using it right now to
>>> build a site (to be published soon).
>>>
>>> A big advantage with Chameleon is that most customizations happen in CSS
>>> or by inserting HTML into the page through configuration files. so there
>>> are fewer dependencies on how MW does their skinning in PHP -- assuming
>>> that Chameleon is always updated to support this properly.
>>>
>>> My only concern would be that Chameleon is still classified Beta. It
>>> would be good to know if we can hope for future support for this if we
>>> switch now.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Markus
>>>
>>> On 16.10.2014 19:52, James HK wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I'm calling for some opinions on replacing the "old" Vector skin on
>>>> smw.org with something fresh. Stephan in his relentless pursuit of
>>>> making MediaWiki more usable to non-Wikipedia users created the
>>>> Chameleon skin [0] which seems more suitable to those who want to use
>>>> MW/SMW in different environments.
>>>>
>>>> SMW no longer tries to be a product that seeks to fulfil requirements
>>>> from either WMF or Wikipedia to be used as encyclopaedic semantic
>>>> content management (that's now the job of Wikidata/Wikibase) therefore
>>>> using the "Vector" skin somehow appears to be outdated by trying to
>>>> look like the good old Wikipedia site.
>>>>
>>>> Furthermore, MW 1.24 (to be released soon) made some changes on how
>>>> skins are deployed [1] and it might be a good time to say farewell to
>>>> the "old" skin and rediscover SMW's identity by changing its
>>>> appearance.
>>>>
>>>> [0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Chameleon
>>>> [1]
>>>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.24#Skins_no_longer_loaded_after_upgrade.3F
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7.
>>>> Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month.
>>>> Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push notifications.
>>>> Take corrective actions from your mobile device.
>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/Zoho
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Semediawiki-user mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
>>>>


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Re: [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?

david mason
In reply to this post by James HK
Hi all,

Maybe I am running with this, but it would benefit the community to make
these efforts generally reusable.

I understand SMW is no longer trying to fit into the Wikimedia universe,
but it still honours the MW approach of edits and source being human
parseable and benefits from ongoing MW enhancements. And using the same
skin as Wikipedia immediately lets people know they are on a (real) wiki
and certain important functionality will be present. Though generally most
people don't know or care, some core editors may; one one project I
switched to a decent menu based skin and had to switch back due to outcry.
For me I want to help people craft knowledge and having the facilities up
front is helpful.

On the other hand, MW's skin is pretty uninspiring. But moving away from it
means you lose access to the usability initiative and other enhancements
that use core MW components. It would be a substantial disadvantage for SMW
sites to not be able to easily use these enhancements, and make them harder
to maintain.

One mitigation could be to lightly adapt the mobile skin. This would solve
multiple problems in having a less clunky appearance yet also helping SMW
support mobile users.

I realize it's political but if there is an objective for the WM
organization to work with related efforts, maybe some MW designers could
collaborate on this project.

As well as fitting into a progression plan with VisualEditor and WikiData,
which I know many people are interested in (access control being the other
point where SMW can't really compare to peer efforts).

Finally, for the sake of efficiency and consistency it would also be good
to have the skin share appearance and functionality with the SMW extensions
such as semantic forms. And I am among many people who are extending SMW
using Javascript and we'd like to be able to connect with existing
components as much as possible.

If there is an effort to raise funds for this my company could contribute
some.

Thanks!

David



On 20 October 2014 04:02, Markus Krötzsch <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On 20.10.2014 09:05, Krabina Bernhard wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > regardless of the skin used, I think it's worthwile to have a look at
> some sites we should aim to match regarding their appearance, e. g.
> >
> > http://www.drupal.org/
> > https://wordpress.org/
> > http://www.joomla.org/
> > https://www.atlassian.com/
>
> You are right. We really need to up our game there a little in terms of
> professional appearance. Looking at these very professional websites
> (and taking into account how much time it takes to do such a thing
> properly), we need to think about how to implement this. We do have a
> number of powerful components available (Chameleon, all the Bootstrap
> basics, I also have some not-yet-released extra code to use further
> Bootstrap features on the Wiki), but it will still be work to use that
> on our site (change table-based layouts on wiki pages; choose fonts,
> colours, images, and textures; style key elements; redesign site
> navigation to go with a collapsing menu, ...). How could we best move
> forward to put this into practice, ideally before the end of this year?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Markus
>
>
> > ----- Am 17. Okt 2014 um 11:58 schrieb Stephan Gambke [hidden email]:
> >
> >> Well, I plan to maintain the skin for a while yet, not least because I
> >> use it myself.
> >>
> >> I want to finally release a version 1.0 this weekend. Should have done
> >> that a long time ago, but always put it off. There is one major issue
> >> left that I want to fix before, which is the un-responsiveness of the
> >> navbar. Should not be too hard to do, somebody recently sent me some
> >> code I think I can use. :)
> >>
> >> There are some rough edges left, but they are mostly related to
> >> styling of special pages and the like and should be easy to fix
> >> (patches welcome).
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Stephan
> >>
> >> On 17 October 2014 10:40, Markus Krötzsch <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> Good idea. Chameleon is great (also because of the nice Bootstrap
> >>> styling that becomes available on all pages). I am using it right now
> to
> >>> build a site (to be published soon).
> >>>
> >>> A big advantage with Chameleon is that most customizations happen in
> CSS
> >>> or by inserting HTML into the page through configuration files. so
> there
> >>> are fewer dependencies on how MW does their skinning in PHP -- assuming
> >>> that Chameleon is always updated to support this properly.
> >>>
> >>> My only concern would be that Chameleon is still classified Beta. It
> >>> would be good to know if we can hope for future support for this if we
> >>> switch now.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>
> >>> Markus
> >>>
> >>> On 16.10.2014 19:52, James HK wrote:
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm calling for some opinions on replacing the "old" Vector skin on
> >>>> smw.org with something fresh. Stephan in his relentless pursuit of
> >>>> making MediaWiki more usable to non-Wikipedia users created the
> >>>> Chameleon skin [0] which seems more suitable to those who want to use
> >>>> MW/SMW in different environments.
> >>>>
> >>>> SMW no longer tries to be a product that seeks to fulfil requirements
> >>>> from either WMF or Wikipedia to be used as encyclopaedic semantic
> >>>> content management (that's now the job of Wikidata/Wikibase) therefore
> >>>> using the "Vector" skin somehow appears to be outdated by trying to
> >>>> look like the good old Wikipedia site.
> >>>>
> >>>> Furthermore, MW 1.24 (to be released soon) made some changes on how
> >>>> skins are deployed [1] and it might be a good time to say farewell to
> >>>> the "old" skin and rediscover SMW's identity by changing its
> >>>> appearance.
> >>>>
> >>>> [0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Chameleon
> >>>> [1]
> >>>>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.24#Skins_no_longer_loaded_after_upgrade.3F
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers
> >>>>
> >>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7.
> >>>> Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month.
> >>>> Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push
> notifications.
> >>>> Take corrective actions from your mobile device.
> >>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/Zoho
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Semediawiki-user mailing list
> >>>> [hidden email]
> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
> >>>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7.
> Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month.
> Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push notifications.
> Take corrective actions from your mobile device.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/Zoho
> _______________________________________________
> Semediawiki-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel
>
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Re: [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?

James HK
Hi,

> I understand SMW is no longer trying to fit into the Wikimedia universe,
> but it still honours the MW approach of edits and source being human
> parseable and benefits from ongoing MW enhancements. And using the same
> skin as Wikipedia immediately lets people know they are on a (real) wiki

Whether SMW fits into the "Wikimedia universe" is being decided by its
users which over the years had different requirements and objectives
and therefore is not always placed well in the MW development cycle or
MW mainstream.

> that use core MW components. It would be a substantial disadvantage for SMW
> sites to not be able to easily use these enhancements, and make them harder
> to maintain.

SMW is fully independent of any skin (as far as I'm aware of) but of
course some query result formatter requires more detail when it comes
to skin support than others but this doesn't relinquish any
functionality of SMW-core.

> One mitigation could be to lightly adapt the mobile skin. This would solve
> multiple problems in having a less clunky appearance yet also helping SMW
> support mobile users.

One reason to choose the Chameleon skin is that it opens a path to
build responsive elements with a "standard" on smw.org without relying
on the WMF's MobilFrontend extension.

> I realize it's political but if there is an objective for the WM
> organization to work with related efforts, maybe some MW designers could
> collaborate on this project.

This is what Stephan did and not being too tightly coupled [0] to MW
or its environment has other advantages (follow semver versioning,
support different release cycle, have proper dependency support etc.)

> As well as fitting into a progression plan with VisualEditor and WikiData,
> which I know many people are interested in (access control being the other
> point where SMW can't really compare to peer efforts).

Using SMW-core with VE should not pose any issue but I'm not sure
about SF and VE. Access control was never a real focus of either SMW
or MW.

If people want to access WD data via SMW then this has to be done as
an extension and is not planned as part of the SMW-core. In case you
want to use the Wikibase software then you don't need to use the SMW
software and visa-versa (at least I couldn't find any reason as to why
someone want to install both).

> Finally, for the sake of efficiency and consistency it would also be good

On a more general note, SMW as a software (aside from its logo) does
not have any appearance but of course the "product" SMW has an
appearance in form of its website smw.org.

Users of SMW are diverse and no longer stand for a single "I want to
be look a Wikipedia" user group therefore SMW as a product has to
change to represent those groups and attract other potential users.

Honestly, the current website can not be used to make a product
statement, it serves as pool that hosts and collects documentation.

> to have the skin share appearance and functionality with the SMW extensions

SMW-core is skin agnostic therefore sharing any skin specific details
would divert from the current policy. It does come with some CSS rules
but those are SMW specific and unless someone can point to where this
is not the case, SMW-core should work on any skin.

> such as semantic forms. And I am among many people who are extending SMW
> using Javascript and we'd like to be able to connect with existing
> components as much as possible.

I'm not sure on how extending SMW with Javascript fits into the
discussion to replace the skin on smw.org.

If people are really interested in supporting SMW as product platform
then I would expect community members to appoint themselves as sponsor
to drive the discussion, help to transform content (rewrite templates
etc.), and bring the website into a position that would invite users
to browse the site.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupling_(computer_programming)

PS: As far as I understand, the user of smw.org would be able to
switch to the "old" Vector skin as registered user.

Cheers

On 10/21/14, david mason <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Maybe I am running with this, but it would benefit the community to make
> these efforts generally reusable.
>
> I understand SMW is no longer trying to fit into the Wikimedia universe,
> but it still honours the MW approach of edits and source being human
> parseable and benefits from ongoing MW enhancements. And using the same
> skin as Wikipedia immediately lets people know they are on a (real) wiki
> and certain important functionality will be present. Though generally most
> people don't know or care, some core editors may; one one project I
> switched to a decent menu based skin and had to switch back due to outcry.
> For me I want to help people craft knowledge and having the facilities up
> front is helpful.
>
> On the other hand, MW's skin is pretty uninspiring. But moving away from it
> means you lose access to the usability initiative and other enhancements
> that use core MW components. It would be a substantial disadvantage for SMW
> sites to not be able to easily use these enhancements, and make them harder
> to maintain.
>
> One mitigation could be to lightly adapt the mobile skin. This would solve
> multiple problems in having a less clunky appearance yet also helping SMW
> support mobile users.
>
> I realize it's political but if there is an objective for the WM
> organization to work with related efforts, maybe some MW designers could
> collaborate on this project.
>
> As well as fitting into a progression plan with VisualEditor and WikiData,
> which I know many people are interested in (access control being the other
> point where SMW can't really compare to peer efforts).
>
> Finally, for the sake of efficiency and consistency it would also be good
> to have the skin share appearance and functionality with the SMW extensions
> such as semantic forms. And I am among many people who are extending SMW
> using Javascript and we'd like to be able to connect with existing
> components as much as possible.
>
> If there is an effort to raise funds for this my company could contribute
> some.
>
> Thanks!
>
> David
>
>
>
> On 20 October 2014 04:02, Markus Krötzsch <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 20.10.2014 09:05, Krabina Bernhard wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > regardless of the skin used, I think it's worthwile to have a look at
>> some sites we should aim to match regarding their appearance, e. g.
>> >
>> > http://www.drupal.org/
>> > https://wordpress.org/
>> > http://www.joomla.org/
>> > https://www.atlassian.com/
>>
>> You are right. We really need to up our game there a little in terms of
>> professional appearance. Looking at these very professional websites
>> (and taking into account how much time it takes to do such a thing
>> properly), we need to think about how to implement this. We do have a
>> number of powerful components available (Chameleon, all the Bootstrap
>> basics, I also have some not-yet-released extra code to use further
>> Bootstrap features on the Wiki), but it will still be work to use that
>> on our site (change table-based layouts on wiki pages; choose fonts,
>> colours, images, and textures; style key elements; redesign site
>> navigation to go with a collapsing menu, ...). How could we best move
>> forward to put this into practice, ideally before the end of this year?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Markus
>>
>>
>> > ----- Am 17. Okt 2014 um 11:58 schrieb Stephan Gambke
>> > [hidden email]:
>> >
>> >> Well, I plan to maintain the skin for a while yet, not least because I
>> >> use it myself.
>> >>
>> >> I want to finally release a version 1.0 this weekend. Should have done
>> >> that a long time ago, but always put it off. There is one major issue
>> >> left that I want to fix before, which is the un-responsiveness of the
>> >> navbar. Should not be too hard to do, somebody recently sent me some
>> >> code I think I can use. :)
>> >>
>> >> There are some rough edges left, but they are mostly related to
>> >> styling of special pages and the like and should be easy to fix
>> >> (patches welcome).
>> >>
>> >> Cheers,
>> >> Stephan
>> >>
>> >> On 17 October 2014 10:40, Markus Krötzsch <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>> Hi,
>> >>>
>> >>> Good idea. Chameleon is great (also because of the nice Bootstrap
>> >>> styling that becomes available on all pages). I am using it right now
>> to
>> >>> build a site (to be published soon).
>> >>>
>> >>> A big advantage with Chameleon is that most customizations happen in
>> CSS
>> >>> or by inserting HTML into the page through configuration files. so
>> there
>> >>> are fewer dependencies on how MW does their skinning in PHP --
>> >>> assuming
>> >>> that Chameleon is always updated to support this properly.
>> >>>
>> >>> My only concern would be that Chameleon is still classified Beta. It
>> >>> would be good to know if we can hope for future support for this if
>> >>> we
>> >>> switch now.
>> >>>
>> >>> Cheers,
>> >>>
>> >>> Markus
>> >>>
>> >>> On 16.10.2014 19:52, James HK wrote:
>> >>>> Hi,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I'm calling for some opinions on replacing the "old" Vector skin on
>> >>>> smw.org with something fresh. Stephan in his relentless pursuit of
>> >>>> making MediaWiki more usable to non-Wikipedia users created the
>> >>>> Chameleon skin [0] which seems more suitable to those who want to
>> >>>> use
>> >>>> MW/SMW in different environments.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> SMW no longer tries to be a product that seeks to fulfil
>> >>>> requirements
>> >>>> from either WMF or Wikipedia to be used as encyclopaedic semantic
>> >>>> content management (that's now the job of Wikidata/Wikibase)
>> >>>> therefore
>> >>>> using the "Vector" skin somehow appears to be outdated by trying to
>> >>>> look like the good old Wikipedia site.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Furthermore, MW 1.24 (to be released soon) made some changes on how
>> >>>> skins are deployed [1] and it might be a good time to say farewell
>> >>>> to
>> >>>> the "old" skin and rediscover SMW's identity by changing its
>> >>>> appearance.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> [0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Chameleon
>> >>>> [1]
>> >>>>
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.24#Skins_no_longer_loaded_after_upgrade.3F
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Cheers
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>> Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7.
>> >>>> Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month.
>> >>>> Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push
>> notifications.
>> >>>> Take corrective actions from your mobile device.
>> >>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/Zoho
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Semediawiki-user mailing list
>> >>>> [hidden email]
>> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
>> >>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7.
>> Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month.
>> Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push notifications.
>> Take corrective actions from your mobile device.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/Zoho
>> _______________________________________________
>> Semediawiki-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel
>>
>

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Re: [SMW-devel] smw.org to replace the "old" Vector skin?

david mason
thanks for the response James, that clears a lot of things up.

I'm aware of coupling issues and wouldn't suggest creating any
dependencies. What I'm trying to say is offering a developed skin could be
a good advantage for users to enhance their sites too. Sites that use SMW
are also part of the product (in the sense referred here) so just like
Google's Material push, the consistency "out of the box" would help as well
as developing an association. Committing to Bootstrap is a strong choice,
but some of its components combine functionality which people would like to
take advantage of, and the style could be quite different than other places
in the site. Considering this helps to make the look and feel process
easier.

With regard to extending SMW with Javascript, it's not exactly a skin
specific issue, though perhaps worth considering in context of building on
Bootstrap, generally when creating this kind of extension which might start
with the straightforward API it can be quite a diversion to go to the
extension level, though it's otherwise an area with many opportunities for
contribution (thinking of facet browsing and visualization in particular).

With regard to using WikiData, I've often wanted to be able to pull in a
current list of countries, industries, etc and within the 'semantic' idea
that SMW originally defined itself by this would be a worthwhile emphasis.
Outside the scope of a skin though. (=

David

On 20 October 2014 21:51, James HK <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > I understand SMW is no longer trying to fit into the Wikimedia universe,
> > but it still honours the MW approach of edits and source being human
> > parseable and benefits from ongoing MW enhancements. And using the same
> > skin as Wikipedia immediately lets people know they are on a (real) wiki
>
> Whether SMW fits into the "Wikimedia universe" is being decided by its
> users which over the years had different requirements and objectives
> and therefore is not always placed well in the MW development cycle or
> MW mainstream.
>
> > that use core MW components. It would be a substantial disadvantage for
> SMW
> > sites to not be able to easily use these enhancements, and make them
> harder
> > to maintain.
>
> SMW is fully independent of any skin (as far as I'm aware of) but of
> course some query result formatter requires more detail when it comes
> to skin support than others but this doesn't relinquish any
> functionality of SMW-core.
>
> > One mitigation could be to lightly adapt the mobile skin. This would
> solve
> > multiple problems in having a less clunky appearance yet also helping SMW
> > support mobile users.
>
> One reason to choose the Chameleon skin is that it opens a path to
> build responsive elements with a "standard" on smw.org without relying
> on the WMF's MobilFrontend extension.
>
> > I realize it's political but if there is an objective for the WM
> > organization to work with related efforts, maybe some MW designers could
> > collaborate on this project.
>
> This is what Stephan did and not being too tightly coupled [0] to MW
> or its environment has other advantages (follow semver versioning,
> support different release cycle, have proper dependency support etc.)
>
> > As well as fitting into a progression plan with VisualEditor and
> WikiData,
> > which I know many people are interested in (access control being the
> other
> > point where SMW can't really compare to peer efforts).
>
> Using SMW-core with VE should not pose any issue but I'm not sure
> about SF and VE. Access control was never a real focus of either SMW
> or MW.
>
> If people want to access WD data via SMW then this has to be done as
> an extension and is not planned as part of the SMW-core. In case you
> want to use the Wikibase software then you don't need to use the SMW
> software and visa-versa (at least I couldn't find any reason as to why
> someone want to install both).
>
> > Finally, for the sake of efficiency and consistency it would also be good
>
> On a more general note, SMW as a software (aside from its logo) does
> not have any appearance but of course the "product" SMW has an
> appearance in form of its website smw.org.
>
> Users of SMW are diverse and no longer stand for a single "I want to
> be look a Wikipedia" user group therefore SMW as a product has to
> change to represent those groups and attract other potential users.
>
> Honestly, the current website can not be used to make a product
> statement, it serves as pool that hosts and collects documentation.
>
> > to have the skin share appearance and functionality with the SMW
> extensions
>
> SMW-core is skin agnostic therefore sharing any skin specific details
> would divert from the current policy. It does come with some CSS rules
> but those are SMW specific and unless someone can point to where this
> is not the case, SMW-core should work on any skin.
>
> > such as semantic forms. And I am among many people who are extending SMW
> > using Javascript and we'd like to be able to connect with existing
> > components as much as possible.
>
> I'm not sure on how extending SMW with Javascript fits into the
> discussion to replace the skin on smw.org.
>
> If people are really interested in supporting SMW as product platform
> then I would expect community members to appoint themselves as sponsor
> to drive the discussion, help to transform content (rewrite templates
> etc.), and bring the website into a position that would invite users
> to browse the site.
>
> [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupling_(computer_programming)
>
> PS: As far as I understand, the user of smw.org would be able to
> switch to the "old" Vector skin as registered user.
>
> Cheers
>
> On 10/21/14, david mason <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Maybe I am running with this, but it would benefit the community to make
> > these efforts generally reusable.
> >
> > I understand SMW is no longer trying to fit into the Wikimedia universe,
> > but it still honours the MW approach of edits and source being human
> > parseable and benefits from ongoing MW enhancements. And using the same
> > skin as Wikipedia immediately lets people know they are on a (real) wiki
> > and certain important functionality will be present. Though generally
> most
> > people don't know or care, some core editors may; one one project I
> > switched to a decent menu based skin and had to switch back due to
> outcry.
> > For me I want to help people craft knowledge and having the facilities up
> > front is helpful.
> >
> > On the other hand, MW's skin is pretty uninspiring. But moving away from
> it
> > means you lose access to the usability initiative and other enhancements
> > that use core MW components. It would be a substantial disadvantage for
> SMW
> > sites to not be able to easily use these enhancements, and make them
> harder
> > to maintain.
> >
> > One mitigation could be to lightly adapt the mobile skin. This would
> solve
> > multiple problems in having a less clunky appearance yet also helping SMW
> > support mobile users.
> >
> > I realize it's political but if there is an objective for the WM
> > organization to work with related efforts, maybe some MW designers could
> > collaborate on this project.
> >
> > As well as fitting into a progression plan with VisualEditor and
> WikiData,
> > which I know many people are interested in (access control being the
> other
> > point where SMW can't really compare to peer efforts).
> >
> > Finally, for the sake of efficiency and consistency it would also be good
> > to have the skin share appearance and functionality with the SMW
> extensions
> > such as semantic forms. And I am among many people who are extending SMW
> > using Javascript and we'd like to be able to connect with existing
> > components as much as possible.
> >
> > If there is an effort to raise funds for this my company could contribute
> > some.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> >
> > On 20 October 2014 04:02, Markus Krötzsch <[hidden email]
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 20.10.2014 09:05, Krabina Bernhard wrote:
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > regardless of the skin used, I think it's worthwile to have a look at
> >> some sites we should aim to match regarding their appearance, e. g.
> >> >
> >> > http://www.drupal.org/
> >> > https://wordpress.org/
> >> > http://www.joomla.org/
> >> > https://www.atlassian.com/
> >>
> >> You are right. We really need to up our game there a little in terms of
> >> professional appearance. Looking at these very professional websites
> >> (and taking into account how much time it takes to do such a thing
> >> properly), we need to think about how to implement this. We do have a
> >> number of powerful components available (Chameleon, all the Bootstrap
> >> basics, I also have some not-yet-released extra code to use further
> >> Bootstrap features on the Wiki), but it will still be work to use that
> >> on our site (change table-based layouts on wiki pages; choose fonts,
> >> colours, images, and textures; style key elements; redesign site
> >> navigation to go with a collapsing menu, ...). How could we best move
> >> forward to put this into practice, ideally before the end of this year?
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Markus
> >>
> >>
> >> > ----- Am 17. Okt 2014 um 11:58 schrieb Stephan Gambke
> >> > [hidden email]:
> >> >
> >> >> Well, I plan to maintain the skin for a while yet, not least because
> I
> >> >> use it myself.
> >> >>
> >> >> I want to finally release a version 1.0 this weekend. Should have
> done
> >> >> that a long time ago, but always put it off. There is one major issue
> >> >> left that I want to fix before, which is the un-responsiveness of the
> >> >> navbar. Should not be too hard to do, somebody recently sent me some
> >> >> code I think I can use. :)
> >> >>
> >> >> There are some rough edges left, but they are mostly related to
> >> >> styling of special pages and the like and should be easy to fix
> >> >> (patches welcome).
> >> >>
> >> >> Cheers,
> >> >> Stephan
> >> >>
> >> >> On 17 October 2014 10:40, Markus Krötzsch <
> >> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >> >>> Hi,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Good idea. Chameleon is great (also because of the nice Bootstrap
> >> >>> styling that becomes available on all pages). I am using it right
> now
> >> to
> >> >>> build a site (to be published soon).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> A big advantage with Chameleon is that most customizations happen in
> >> CSS
> >> >>> or by inserting HTML into the page through configuration files. so
> >> there
> >> >>> are fewer dependencies on how MW does their skinning in PHP --
> >> >>> assuming
> >> >>> that Chameleon is always updated to support this properly.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> My only concern would be that Chameleon is still classified Beta. It
> >> >>> would be good to know if we can hope for future support for this if
> >> >>> we
> >> >>> switch now.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Cheers,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Markus
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On 16.10.2014 19:52, James HK wrote:
> >> >>>> Hi,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I'm calling for some opinions on replacing the "old" Vector skin on
> >> >>>> smw.org with something fresh. Stephan in his relentless pursuit of
> >> >>>> making MediaWiki more usable to non-Wikipedia users created the
> >> >>>> Chameleon skin [0] which seems more suitable to those who want to
> >> >>>> use
> >> >>>> MW/SMW in different environments.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> SMW no longer tries to be a product that seeks to fulfil
> >> >>>> requirements
> >> >>>> from either WMF or Wikipedia to be used as encyclopaedic semantic
> >> >>>> content management (that's now the job of Wikidata/Wikibase)
> >> >>>> therefore
> >> >>>> using the "Vector" skin somehow appears to be outdated by trying to
> >> >>>> look like the good old Wikipedia site.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Furthermore, MW 1.24 (to be released soon) made some changes on how
> >> >>>> skins are deployed [1] and it might be a good time to say farewell
> >> >>>> to
> >> >>>> the "old" skin and rediscover SMW's identity by changing its
> >> >>>> appearance.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> [0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Chameleon
> >> >>>> [1]
> >> >>>>
> >>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.24#Skins_no_longer_loaded_after_upgrade.3F
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Cheers
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >>>> Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7.
> >> >>>> Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month.
> >> >>>> Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push
> >> notifications.
> >> >>>> Take corrective actions from your mobile device.
> >> >>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/Zoho
> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>> Semediawiki-user mailing list
> >> >>>> [hidden email]
> >> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
> >> >>>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7.
> >> Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month.
> >> Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push
> notifications.
> >> Take corrective actions from your mobile device.
> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/Zoho
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Semediawiki-devel mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel
> >>
> >
>
>
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