trip report: Wiki Indaba 2018 [partial]

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trip report: Wiki Indaba 2018 [partial]

Leila Zia
Hi all,

Here is the report of the one session I attended in Wiki Indaba over the
past weekend:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:LZia_(WMF)/Trip_reports#Wiki_Indaba_2018

Best,
Leila
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Re: trip report: Wiki Indaba 2018 [partial]

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
I have read your comments on the WIki Indaba. Sad to hear that you could
not make it.

As a movement it is not our task to serve the "2000" languages that you
mention. It is our task to serve the languages that we support in our
existing Wikipedias. The difference is significant. When people aim to help
themselves, their culture, their language by investing their efforts in a
Wikipedia, we have a process that recognises this and that leads to the
start of a Wikipedia. Thanks to the Incubator, translatewiki.net we provide
a native interface in all our languages. There are strong arguments why we
should invest more in other languages like the top 25 languages minus
English and in the other languages. The easiest argument is that English is
less than 50% of our traffic.

Where you talk about subjects that people are likely to read, there are
many predictive models possible. The big issue in current approaches is
that they start with what we know from projects particularly the English
Wikipedia. The English Wikipedia is biased and consequently many subjects
that may be of a higher relevance in other languages or cultures will not
be suggested when English Wikipedia and its traffic is the yard stone to
measure by. Often there is more and better information in other Wikipedias.
Arguably thanks to Wikidata it becomes easier to find a more composite view
of the subjects people may be interested in.

Anyway, thank you for reporting on your virtual presence; you made a
difference in this way.
Thanks,
      GerardM


On 23 March 2018 at 00:41, Leila Zia <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Here is the report of the one session I attended in Wiki Indaba over the
> past weekend:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:LZia_(WMF)/Trip_
> reports#Wiki_Indaba_2018
>
> Best,
> Leila
> _______________________________________________
> Wiki-research-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l
>
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Re: trip report: Wiki Indaba 2018 [partial]

abdelwaheb turki
In reply to this post by Leila Zia
Dear Ms.,
I thank you for your answer. As a Programme Committee member of WikiIndaba 2018 and as the author of WikiResearch in Africa: Situation and Challenges also presented in the Research Showcase of WikiIndaba 2018, I was honoured to receive your report. I really greet the efforts of Wikimedia Foundation to raise WikiResearch in Africa and would like to contribute in this context. We can discuss about that if you want to. Concerning the role of Wikimedia Foundation concerning and as I already said after your presentation, I think that the matter is the lack of connection between LangCom and African language regulatory institutions. Another matter can be the difficulty of reaching LangCom. In fact, messages from communities to LangCom mailing list take days to be processed by moderators and then published. There is also a problem of contacting LangCom using Phabricator and Meta. Absolutely, such matters should be fixed. Finally, just for information concerning Wikimania proposal about using Wikidata in Medicine, I should inform you that I am Csisc who posted it in Wikidata talk page of Wikimania 2018.
Yours Sincerely,
Houcemeddine Turki
________________________________
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À : [hidden email]
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Today's Topics:

   1. trip report: Wiki Indaba 2018 [partial] (Leila Zia)
   2. Re: trip report: Wiki Indaba 2018 [partial] (Gerard Meijssen)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2018 16:41:46 -0700
From: Leila Zia <[hidden email]>
To: Research into Wikimedia content and communities
        <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Wiki-research-l] trip report: Wiki Indaba 2018 [partial]
Message-ID:
        <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi all,

Here is the report of the one session I attended in Wiki Indaba over the
past weekend:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:LZia_(WMF)/Trip_reports#Wiki_Indaba_2018

Best,
Leila


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2018 08:13:31 +0100
From: Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
To: Research into Wikimedia content and communities
        <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Wiki-research-l] trip report: Wiki Indaba 2018 [partial]
Message-ID:
        <CAO53wxVaE3DPkbbQfeUo1XH1HJETzAzJrzXt=[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hoi,
I have read your comments on the WIki Indaba. Sad to hear that you could
not make it.

As a movement it is not our task to serve the "2000" languages that you
mention. It is our task to serve the languages that we support in our
existing Wikipedias. The difference is significant. When people aim to help
themselves, their culture, their language by investing their efforts in a
Wikipedia, we have a process that recognises this and that leads to the
start of a Wikipedia. Thanks to the Incubator, translatewiki.net we provide
a native interface in all our languages. There are strong arguments why we
should invest more in other languages like the top 25 languages minus
English and in the other languages. The easiest argument is that English is
less than 50% of our traffic.

Where you talk about subjects that people are likely to read, there are
many predictive models possible. The big issue in current approaches is
that they start with what we know from projects particularly the English
Wikipedia. The English Wikipedia is biased and consequently many subjects
that may be of a higher relevance in other languages or cultures will not
be suggested when English Wikipedia and its traffic is the yard stone to
measure by. Often there is more and better information in other Wikipedias.
Arguably thanks to Wikidata it becomes easier to find a more composite view
of the subjects people may be interested in.

Anyway, thank you for reporting on your virtual presence; you made a
difference in this way.
Thanks,
      GerardM


On 23 March 2018 at 00:41, Leila Zia <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Here is the report of the one session I attended in Wiki Indaba over the
> past weekend:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:LZia_(WMF)/Trip_
> reports#Wiki_Indaba_2018
>
> Best,
> Leila
> _______________________________________________
> Wiki-research-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l
>


------------------------------

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Re: trip report: Wiki Indaba 2018 [partial]

Leila Zia
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
Hi Gerard,

On Fri, Mar 23, 2018 at 12:13 AM, Gerard Meijssen
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hoi,
> I have read your comments on the WIki Indaba. Sad to hear that you could
> not make it.
>
> As a movement it is not our task to serve the "2000" languages that you
> mention. It is our task to serve the languages that we support in our
> existing Wikipedias.


This is not obvious to me if I read the strategic direction [1].
Specifically under Knowledge Equity we say:

"We will welcome people from every background to build strong and
diverse communities. We will break down the social, political, and
technical barriers preventing people from accessing and contributing
to free knowledge."

Depending on how we want to operationalize "welcome" in the above
sentence, we may not want to focus on Wikipedia as the only project
which will be the path of entry for language communities. Even if it's
clear that we have to focus on Wikipedia, it is not clear to me that
we should focus our support only on the languages that already have a
Wikipedia. What if there are languages in which Wikipedia can be
present and due to the limitations of the specific community around
that language they have not been able to pull off their language
Wikipedia? Of course, I understand the tension. There is argument to
be made that when it comes to Wikipedia, our best bet is to focus on
the languages that are already in. That's why I called out that we
will be challenged with the trade-offs.

> Where you talk about subjects that people are likely to read, there are
> many predictive models possible. The big issue in current approaches is
> that they start with what we know from projects particularly the English
> Wikipedia. The English Wikipedia is biased and consequently many subjects
> that may be of a higher relevance in other languages or cultures will not
> be suggested when English Wikipedia and its traffic is the yard stone to
> measure by.

The ranking model in section 2.2. of
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1604.03235.pdf addresses this issue to a good
extent. There is no emphasis on one Wikipedia in that model. Please
check the list of features.
We still can do better and improve that model to not be based on the
pageviews in the destination language, as I mentioned in the report,
we've had some conversations about picking up that direction, but the
reality is that we have a working model that can predict pageviews in
the destination language based on more universal features than just
what is happening in English Wikipedia. We should use that model when
relevant! :)

> Anyway, thank you for reporting on your virtual presence; you made a
> difference in this way.

anytime! :)

Best,
Leila

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2017/Direction#Our_strategic_direction:_Service_and_Equity


> Thanks,
>       GerardM
>
>
> On 23 March 2018 at 00:41, Leila Zia <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Here is the report of the one session I attended in Wiki Indaba over the
> > past weekend:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:LZia_(WMF)/Trip_
> > reports#Wiki_Indaba_2018
> >
> > Best,
> > Leila
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wiki-research-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wiki-research-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l

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Re: trip report: Wiki Indaba 2018 [partial]

Leila Zia
In reply to this post by abdelwaheb turki
Hi Houcemeddine,

On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 5:50 AM, abdelwaheb turki
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Dear Ms.,
> I thank you for your answer. As a Programme Committee member of WikiIndaba 2018 and as the author of WikiResearch in Africa: Situation and Challenges also presented in the Research Showcase of WikiIndaba 2018, I was honoured to receive your report.

Thanks for your presentation and following up.

> I really greet the efforts of Wikimedia Foundation to raise WikiResearch in Africa and would like to contribute in this context. We can discuss about that if you want to. Concerning the role of Wikimedia Foundation concerning and as I already said after your presentation, I think that the matter is the lack of connection between LangCom and African language regulatory institutions. Another matter can be the difficulty of reaching LangCom. In fact, messages from communities to LangCom mailing list take days to be processed by moderators and then published. There is also a problem of contacting LangCom using Phabricator and Meta. Absolutely, such matters should be fixed.

[LangCom refers to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_committee,
for those who like me had to pause a bit and think what it is. :)]

I don't have much more to add at the moment on this front. One thing
on my todo list is to educate myself more about this space and work
within our team in the coming year(s) to see where we can make a
difference.

Best,
Leila

> Yours Sincerely,
> Houcemeddine Turki
> ________________________________
> De : Wiki-research-l <[hidden email]> de la part de [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> Envoyé : vendredi 23 mars 2018 13:00
> À : [hidden email]
> Objet : Wiki-research-l Digest, Vol 151, Issue 11
>
> Send Wiki-research-l mailing list submissions to
>         [hidden email]
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         [hidden email]
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         [hidden email]
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Wiki-research-l digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. trip report: Wiki Indaba 2018 [partial] (Leila Zia)
>    2. Re: trip report: Wiki Indaba 2018 [partial] (Gerard Meijssen)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2018 16:41:46 -0700
> From: Leila Zia <[hidden email]>
> To: Research into Wikimedia content and communities
>         <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Wiki-research-l] trip report: Wiki Indaba 2018 [partial]
> Message-ID:
>         <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hi all,
>
> Here is the report of the one session I attended in Wiki Indaba over the
> past weekend:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:LZia_(WMF)/Trip_reports#Wiki_Indaba_2018
>
> Best,
> Leila
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2018 08:13:31 +0100
> From: Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
> To: Research into Wikimedia content and communities
>         <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Wiki-research-l] trip report: Wiki Indaba 2018 [partial]
> Message-ID:
>         <CAO53wxVaE3DPkbbQfeUo1XH1HJETzAzJrzXt=[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hoi,
> I have read your comments on the WIki Indaba. Sad to hear that you could
> not make it.
>
> As a movement it is not our task to serve the "2000" languages that you
> mention. It is our task to serve the languages that we support in our
> existing Wikipedias. The difference is significant. When people aim to help
> themselves, their culture, their language by investing their efforts in a
> Wikipedia, we have a process that recognises this and that leads to the
> start of a Wikipedia. Thanks to the Incubator, translatewiki.net we provide
> a native interface in all our languages. There are strong arguments why we
> should invest more in other languages like the top 25 languages minus
> English and in the other languages. The easiest argument is that English is
> less than 50% of our traffic.
>
> Where you talk about subjects that people are likely to read, there are
> many predictive models possible. The big issue in current approaches is
> that they start with what we know from projects particularly the English
> Wikipedia. The English Wikipedia is biased and consequently many subjects
> that may be of a higher relevance in other languages or cultures will not
> be suggested when English Wikipedia and its traffic is the yard stone to
> measure by. Often there is more and better information in other Wikipedias.
> Arguably thanks to Wikidata it becomes easier to find a more composite view
> of the subjects people may be interested in.
>
> Anyway, thank you for reporting on your virtual presence; you made a
> difference in this way.
> Thanks,
>       GerardM
>
>
> On 23 March 2018 at 00:41, Leila Zia <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Here is the report of the one session I attended in Wiki Indaba over the
>> past weekend:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:LZia_(WMF)/Trip_
>> reports#Wiki_Indaba_2018
>>
>> Best,
>> Leila
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wiki-research-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiki-research-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Wiki-research-l Digest, Vol 151, Issue 11
> ************************************************
> _______________________________________________
> Wiki-research-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l

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Re: trip report: Wiki Indaba 2018 [partial]

Federico Leva (Nemo)
I'm glad that language support was flagged.

Leila Zia, 26/03/2018 21:37:
> I don't have much more to add at the moment on this front. One thing
> on my todo list is to educate myself more about this space and work
> within our team in the coming year(s) to see where we can make a
> difference.

There are some ideas at
<https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Language_goals_and_wishlist>.

Federico

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Re: trip report: Wiki Indaba 2018 [partial]

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Leila Zia
Hoi,
It is clear that you do not know the language policy. It does not say what
project should be the first. It does state what is needed to start with a
new language. The requirement for a first project is that there is
localisation for the most used messages of MediaWiki and a sustained effort
at the Incubator. For Wikidata there is an option to add strings in the
language when the language is supported by an ISO-639-3 language code.

Having said that, I do not mind lofty words in a strategy document but when
things are to be realistic, it is stupid to add more balast to a fully
laden ship. We have plenty of languages in Africa and Asia with millions of
people that are functionally dormant. When you consider historic
information about Africa and Asia, there is so much information not
accessible or even available (often in other languages). Making data
available to Wikidata is one thing, I am adding information on the Ottoman
Empire from the Catalan Wikipedia that is often more complete, but gaining
is a completely different issue. There is too much hostility by Wikipedians
to Wikidata.

When you consider experiments like the Cebuan Wikipedia, it has been said
by a WMF official that this will not be studied for its effects. When you
consider that some 4 to 6% of links in lists like the "George Polk Award
Winners" are wrong, you will appreciate that this is where we could
consider alternatives that fix these issues. The problem is that there is
little interest in such issues. Alternatives to the current linking system
is possible and linking to Wikidata has proven itself from the start for
interwikilinks (it is a known good).

When we are to support 2000 languages we need to be smart about it. We
could but we need to be practical. Agreeing on the quality of information
first by comparison is one strategy where we need the help of DBpedia
because they at this time have a better framework for comparison. We could
use lexical data to generate dynamic texts in languages but imho we start
with an artificial gap between lexical data and topical data. I am
interested to learn how issues like these will be "solved".

As to your proposal for new articles; it assumes that articles need to be
saved. I am more in favour of articles that will be read and change when
the underlying data changes. Authors can step in when they feel they can do
better.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On 26 March 2018 at 20:25, Leila Zia <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Gerard,
>
> On Fri, Mar 23, 2018 at 12:13 AM, Gerard Meijssen
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Hoi,
> > I have read your comments on the WIki Indaba. Sad to hear that you could
> > not make it.
> >
> > As a movement it is not our task to serve the "2000" languages that you
> > mention. It is our task to serve the languages that we support in our
> > existing Wikipedias.
>
>
> This is not obvious to me if I read the strategic direction [1].
> Specifically under Knowledge Equity we say:
>
> "We will welcome people from every background to build strong and
> diverse communities. We will break down the social, political, and
> technical barriers preventing people from accessing and contributing
> to free knowledge."
>
> Depending on how we want to operationalize "welcome" in the above
> sentence, we may not want to focus on Wikipedia as the only project
> which will be the path of entry for language communities. Even if it's
> clear that we have to focus on Wikipedia, it is not clear to me that
> we should focus our support only on the languages that already have a
> Wikipedia. What if there are languages in which Wikipedia can be
> present and due to the limitations of the specific community around
> that language they have not been able to pull off their language
> Wikipedia? Of course, I understand the tension. There is argument to
> be made that when it comes to Wikipedia, our best bet is to focus on
> the languages that are already in. That's why I called out that we
> will be challenged with the trade-offs.
>
> > Where you talk about subjects that people are likely to read, there are
> > many predictive models possible. The big issue in current approaches is
> > that they start with what we know from projects particularly the English
> > Wikipedia. The English Wikipedia is biased and consequently many subjects
> > that may be of a higher relevance in other languages or cultures will not
> > be suggested when English Wikipedia and its traffic is the yard stone to
> > measure by.
>
> The ranking model in section 2.2. of
> https://arxiv.org/pdf/1604.03235.pdf addresses this issue to a good
> extent. There is no emphasis on one Wikipedia in that model. Please
> check the list of features.
> We still can do better and improve that model to not be based on the
> pageviews in the destination language, as I mentioned in the report,
> we've had some conversations about picking up that direction, but the
> reality is that we have a working model that can predict pageviews in
> the destination language based on more universal features than just
> what is happening in English Wikipedia. We should use that model when
> relevant! :)
>
> > Anyway, thank you for reporting on your virtual presence; you made a
> > difference in this way.
>
> anytime! :)
>
> Best,
> Leila
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_
> movement/2017/Direction#Our_strategic_direction:_Service_and_Equity
>
>
> > Thanks,
> >       GerardM
> >
> >
> > On 23 March 2018 at 00:41, Leila Zia <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Here is the report of the one session I attended in Wiki Indaba over
> the
> > > past weekend:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:LZia_(WMF)/Trip_
> > > reports#Wiki_Indaba_2018
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Leila
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wiki-research-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wiki-research-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiki-research-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l
>
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Re: trip report: Wiki Indaba 2018 [partial]

Pine W
I have a suggestion.

Both WMF and the community are operating under resource constraints, and I
think that the question of whether and how WMF should resource the support
of additional projects versus current projects is a good one to have in the
context of the strategy discussion. Rather than try to work out that issue
here on Research-l, I suggest that the issue be flagged to Nicole Ebber for
inclusion in the strategy discussions.

Similarly, I think that the role of Wikidata in the Wikimedia universe
would be good to have in the context of the strategy process.

Pine
( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
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Re: trip report: Wiki Indaba 2018 [partial]

Leila Zia
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 12:05 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Both WMF and the community are operating under resource constraints, and I
> think that the question of whether and how WMF should resource the support
> of additional projects versus current projects is a good one to have in the
> context of the strategy discussion. Rather than try to work out that issue
> here on Research-l, I suggest that the issue be flagged to Nicole Ebber for
> inclusion in the strategy discussions.

Sounds good to me, Pine.

Best,
Leila

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