uk. or gb.

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uk. or gb.

Andy Mabbett-2
The Scotland vs. UK debate has reminded me that we're using
uk.wikimedia.org which is, strictly speaking, the Ukrainian
sub-domain; and should be using gb.wikimedia.org

Is this something we should rectify sooner, rather than later,
choosing some pain now over more pain later?

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: uk. or gb.

Chris Keating-2
I don't see what gb.wikimedia.org has to do with anything, to be honest. We are very definitely not Wikimedia Great Britain.

Ideally we would make greater use of wikimedia.org.uk but we have promoted uk.wikimedia.org well enough that we should probably deflect uk.wikimedia.org to wikimedia.org.uk when we make the move.

Chris

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 10:40 PM, Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]> wrote:
The Scotland vs. UK debate has reminded me that we're using
uk.wikimedia.org which is, strictly speaking, the Ukrainian
sub-domain; and should be using gb.wikimedia.org

Is this something we should rectify sooner, rather than later,
choosing some pain now over more pain later?

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: uk. or gb.

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Andy Mabbett-2
On 14 September 2011 22:40, Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The Scotland vs. UK debate has reminded me that we're using
> uk.wikimedia.org which is, strictly speaking, the Ukrainian
> sub-domain; and should be using gb.wikimedia.org
>
> Is this something we should rectify sooner, rather than later,
> choosing some pain now over more pain later?

It is correct.

x.wikimedia.org subdomains use country codes (ISO 3166).
x.wikipedia.org subdomains use language codes (ISO 639). "uk" is the
language code for Ukrainian. In country codes, it is a recognised
alternative code for the UK [1].

We prefer "uk" to "gb" since it is actually an abbreviation for the
name of our country, rather than being an abbreviation for the name of
an island that makes up part of our country.

1. http://www.iso.org/iso/support/country_codes/iso_3166_code_lists/iso-3166-1_decoding_table.htm#UK

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Re: uk. or gb.

Thomas Dalton
On 14 September 2011 22:50, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 14 September 2011 22:40, Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> The Scotland vs. UK debate has reminded me that we're using
>> uk.wikimedia.org which is, strictly speaking, the Ukrainian
>> sub-domain; and should be using gb.wikimedia.org
>>
>> Is this something we should rectify sooner, rather than later,
>> choosing some pain now over more pain later?
>
> It is correct.
>
> x.wikimedia.org subdomains use country codes (ISO 3166).
> x.wikipedia.org subdomains use language codes (ISO 639). "uk" is the
> language code for Ukrainian. In country codes, it is a recognised
> alternative code for the UK [1].
>
> We prefer "uk" to "gb" since it is actually an abbreviation for the
> name of our country, rather than being an abbreviation for the name of
> an island that makes up part of our country.
>
> 1. http://www.iso.org/iso/support/country_codes/iso_3166_code_lists/iso-3166-1_decoding_table.htm#UK

There's an FAQ entry here explaining why the primary code is "gb" if
anyone is interesting:
http://www.iso.org/iso/country_codes/iso_3166-faqs/iso_3166_faqs_specific.htm

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Re: uk. or gb.

Andrew West-4
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
On 14 September 2011 22:50, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> x.wikimedia.org subdomains use country codes (ISO 3166).
> x.wikipedia.org subdomains use language codes (ISO 639). "uk" is the
> language code for Ukrainian. In country codes, it is a recognised
> alternative code for the UK [1].

That's not quite true. "uk" has been "exceptionally reserved" at the
request of the United Kingdom, as it is "required in order to support
a particular application, as specified by the requesting body and
limited to such use; any further use of such code elements is subject
to approval by the ISO 3166/MA".  Therefore it should not be used in
applications of ISO 3166, and is not a recognised alternative code --
"gb" is the only official country code for the "United Kingdom".
Nevertheless, the use of ISO 3166 country codes for wikimedia
subdomains is just a wikimedia convention, and there is no law against
us squatting on Ukraine's country code.

Andrew
BabelStone

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Re: uk. or gb.

Richard Symonds-3
In reply to this post by Andy Mabbett-2
In answer to Andy's original question: I'd rather sort it out later, after
the fundraiser. There is quite enough on our collective plate at present,
and perhaps this should wait until after the CEO is in position and the
fundraiser is comfortably set up.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Andy Mabbett
Sent: 14 September 2011 22:40
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Wikimediauk-l] uk. or gb.

The Scotland vs. UK debate has reminded me that we're using
uk.wikimedia.org which is, strictly speaking, the Ukrainian
sub-domain; and should be using gb.wikimedia.org

Is this something we should rectify sooner, rather than later,
choosing some pain now over more pain later?

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org


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Re: uk. or gb.

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Andrew West-4

On Sep 15, 2011 12:11 AM, "Andrew West" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 14 September 2011 22:50, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > x.wikimedia.org subdomains use country codes (ISO 3166).
> > x.wikipedia.org subdomains use language codes (ISO 639). "uk" is the
> > language code for Ukrainian. In country codes, it is a recognised
> > alternative code for the UK [1].
>
> That's not quite true. "uk" has been "exceptionally reserved" at the
> request of the United Kingdom, as it is "required in order to support
> a particular application, as specified by the requesting body and
> limited to such use; any further use of such code elements is subject
> to approval by the ISO 3166/MA".  Therefore it should not be used in
> applications of ISO 3166, and is not a recognised alternative code --
> "gb" is the only official country code for the "United Kingdom".
> Nevertheless, the use of ISO 3166 country codes for wikimedia
> subdomains is just a wikimedia convention, and there is no law against
> us squatting on Ukraine's country code.

While you may be right that it isn't strictly accurate to call uk an alternative country code for the UK, it is definitely incorrect to call it Ukraine's country code. That is ua. uk is Ukrainian's language code, but that it a completely different standard.


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Re: uk. or gb.

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Andy Mabbett-2

On Sep 15, 2011 12:16 AM, "Richard Symonds" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> In answer to Andy's original question: I'd rather sort it out later, after
> the fundraiser. There is quite enough on our collective plate at present,
> and perhaps this should wait until after the CEO is in position and the
> fundraiser is comfortably set up.

Please don't sort anything out. It's fine how it is. We are, and should be, Wikimedia UK. It would be confusing for us to use gb for our subdomain. Especially since our primary url uses the country top level domain, uk.


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Re: uk. or gb.

Andrew West-4
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
On 15 September 2011 00:37, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> While you may be right that it isn't strictly accurate to call uk an
> alternative country code for the UK, it is definitely incorrect to call it
> Ukraine's country code. That is ua. uk is Ukrainian's language code, but
> that it a completely different standard.

Of course, thanks for pointing that out -- I must have confused myself
half way through writing that.

Andrew

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Re: uk. or gb.

Michael Peel-4
In reply to this post by Chris Keating-2

On 14 Sep 2011, at 22:49, Chris Keating wrote:

> I don't see what gb.wikimedia.org has to do with anything, to be honest. We are very definitely not Wikimedia Great Britain.

Actually… we could be. ;-) See:
http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapter_Agreement#Name
"Irrespective of their locally incorporated names, the Chapter is authorized to assume and operate under the titles “Wikimedia England”, “Wikimedia Scotland”, “Wikimedia Wales”, “Wikimedia Northern Ireland”, “Wikimedia Britain”, “Wikimedia Great Britain”, “Wikimedia GB”, “Wikimedia United Kingdom” and “Wikimedia UK” and translations of these titles into other languages, for all operations as a Wikimedia chapter."

> Ideally we would make greater use of wikimedia.org.uk but we have promoted uk.wikimedia.org well enough that we should probably deflect uk.wikimedia.org to wikimedia.org.uk when we make the move.

The downside of moving to wikimedia.org.uk is that we use access to the Single User Login system (we'd have the site on our own server, and I don't believe it's possible to use SUL from outside the WMF's server farm). I'm never sure how useful SUL is to visitors, though... There are a number of upsides to moving, e.g. in terms of being able to easily reconfigure things and add extensions, and reinforcing our independence from the WMF (I've always been a bit uneasy that they host our main site.)

Mike


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Re: uk. or gb.

Katie Chan
On 15/09/2011 07:34, Michael Peel wrote:
>
> The downside of moving to wikimedia.org.uk is that we use access to the Single User Login system (we'd have the site on our own server, and I don't believe it's possible to use SUL from outside the WMF's server farm). I'm never sure how useful SUL is to visitors, though... There are a number of upsides to moving, e.g. in terms of being able to easily reconfigure things and add extensions, and reinforcing our independence from the WMF (I've always been a bit uneasy that they host our main site.)
>
> Mike

Most organisation & individuals do not host their website on servers
owned by them, but by paying somebody else to host it, or in some case
getting it free from the server owner/operator. If you really feel the
need to reinforce independence, you can always pay WMF to host the
chapter website as if they were a web hosting company.

Personally, I don't see a problem WMF willing to host the chapter
website for free. The chapter is a non-profit after all, let's not spend
money it doesn't need to.

If you're worrying about independence, I'll worry more about the
(proposed) changes to the annual fundraiser to some kind of grants
system if and when it applies to the chapter.

In terms of SUL, well it's one less login to remember (for the majority
of Chapter wiki editors who already have an account on a WMF wiki).
Similar to OpenID.

KTC

--
Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
     - Heinrich Heine

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Re: uk. or gb.

Michael Peel-4

On 15 Sep 2011, at 14:57, Katie Chan wrote:

> On 15/09/2011 07:34, Michael Peel wrote:
>>
>> The downside of moving to wikimedia.org.uk is that we use access to the Single User Login system (we'd have the site on our own server, and I don't believe it's possible to use SUL from outside the WMF's server farm). I'm never sure how useful SUL is to visitors, though... There are a number of upsides to moving, e.g. in terms of being able to easily reconfigure things and add extensions, and reinforcing our independence from the WMF (I've always been a bit uneasy that they host our main site.)
>>
>> Mike
>
> Most organisation & individuals do not host their website on servers
> owned by them, but by paying somebody else to host it, or in some case
> getting it free from the server owner/operator. If you really feel the
> need to reinforce independence, you can always pay WMF to host the
> chapter website as if they were a web hosting company.

The thing that worries me is that the WMF isn't a web hosting company (in contrast to e.g. Wikia) - us being able to have a wiki hosted by them is special.

> Personally, I don't see a problem WMF willing to host the chapter
> website for free. The chapter is a non-profit after all, let's not spend
> money it doesn't need to.

We already have webspace that hosts our blog, donation site, emails, etc. So there's no difference in cost as to whether it's hosted by us or the WMF. (note that the hosting and its management is actually provided to WMUK for free, by myself.)

> If you're worrying about independence, I'll worry more about the
> (proposed) changes to the annual fundraiser to some kind of grants
> system if and when it applies to the chapter.

Oh, we're doing an awful lot of worrying about that… if only there was a way to pass on a charge for premature grey hairs to the Foundation. ;-)

> In terms of SUL, well it's one less login to remember (for the majority
> of Chapter wiki editors who already have an account on a WMF wiki).
> Similar to OpenID.

Indeed. It's a shame that SUL doesn't act as an OpenID that others can connect to.

Mike


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Re: uk. or gb.

Gordon Joly
In reply to this post by Katie Chan
On 15/09/2011 14:57, Katie Chan wrote:
> Most organisation&  individuals do not host their website on servers
> owned by them, but by paying somebody else to host it, or in some case
> getting it free from the server owner/operator.
Memset offer a basic package free for charities.

http://www.memset.com/charities.php


Gordo



--

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Don't Leave Space To The Professionals!


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Re: uk. or gb.

Thomas Dalton
On 16 September 2011 12:27, Gordon Joly <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 15/09/2011 14:57, Katie Chan wrote:
>> Most organisation&  individuals do not host their website on servers
>> owned by them, but by paying somebody else to host it, or in some case
>> getting it free from the server owner/operator.
> Memset offer a basic package free for charities.
>
> http://www.memset.com/charities.php

I haven't followed the link, but I doubt a basic package would be
sufficient for our needs.

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Re: uk. or gb.

Gordon Joly
On 16/09/2011 17:35, Thomas Dalton wrote:
On 16 September 2011 12:27, Gordon Joly [hidden email] wrote:
On 15/09/2011 14:57, Katie Chan wrote:
Most organisation&  individuals do not host their website on servers
owned by them, but by paying somebody else to host it, or in some case
getting it free from the server owner/operator.
Memset offer a basic package free for charities.

http://www.memset.com/charities.php
I haven't followed the link, but I doubt a basic package would be
sufficient for our needs.

Growing sites

If you are a small charity with big aspirations, that is fine too. We are very used to helping organisations grow their hosting requirements, and all our solutions are very scalable. Also, as you grow we will continue to give you discounted services.

Gordon Joly
[hidden email]
http://www.joly.org.uk/
Don't Leave Space To The Professionals!

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