wikiwyg in mediawiki

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wikiwyg in mediawiki

Bierens,Gerard G.J.M.
I could not find very much detailed information about this, but I'm looking
for some guidance when trying to install the Wikiwyg-editor (http://www.wikiwyg.net/) into
Mediawiki.

 

I don't want the greasemonkey solution, but full serverside integration of the wikiwyg-editor. Anyone done this, and if yes, how?  

Gerard Bierens
Fontys Mediatheek webco├Ârdinator

 



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Re: wikiwyg in mediawiki

Brion Vibber
Bierens,Gerard G.J.M. wrote:
> I could not find very much detailed information about this, but I'm looking
> for some guidance when trying to install the Wikiwyg-editor (http://www.wikiwyg.net/) into
> Mediawiki.
>
> I don't want the greasemonkey solution, but full serverside integration of
> the wikiwyg-editor. Anyone done this, and if yes, how?

Wait six months to a year; eventually there may be a suitable such package.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


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Re: wikiwyg in mediawiki

Christiaan Briggs
I've been waiting three years for WYSIWYG or WYSIWYM support in  
MediaWiki. I keep going off trying other Wikis with such support but  
they're never up to par with MediaWiki in all other respects.

Christiaan

On 25 Apr 2006, at 2:45 AM, Brion Vibber wrote:

> Bierens,Gerard G.J.M. wrote:
>> I could not find very much detailed information about this, but  
>> I'm looking
>> for some guidance when trying to install the Wikiwyg-editor  
>> (http://www.wikiwyg.net/) into
>> Mediawiki.
>>
>> I don't want the greasemonkey solution, but full serverside  
>> integration of
>> the wikiwyg-editor. Anyone done this, and if yes, how?
>
> Wait six months to a year; eventually there may be a suitable such  
> package.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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Re: wikiwyg in mediawiki

Bierens,Gerard G.J.M.
Wait six months to a year? A bit long if you ask me, the demo's on the wikiwyg
website show the potential of a more friendly editor. Isn't there a programmer
around who can make this into a mediawiki-extension?

Gerard


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Re: wikiwyg in mediawiki

Erik Moeller-3
MediaWiki's syntax is extremely complex and weird; switching
dynamically between this and a WYSIWYG mode is not going to be
trivial. Furthermore, we have things like dynamically transcluded and
parametrized templates which a) cannot be easily rendered as WYSIWYG,
b) can break.

Could someone who has GreaseMonkey installed post a quick evaluation
of the state of
http://demo.wikiwyg.net/wikiwyg/demo/wikipedia/ ? Does it convert
accurately back and forth between MediaWiki's syntax and WYSIWYG on
complex pages? How does it deal with templates?

Erik
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Re: wikiwyg in mediawiki

Jan Steinman
In reply to this post by Bierens,Gerard G.J.M.
> From: Christiaan Briggs <[hidden email]>
>
> I've been waiting three years for WYSIWYG or WYSIWYM support in
> MediaWiki.

Well... you could *write* one, an contribute it to the project!

> I keep going off trying other Wikis with such support but
> they're never up to par with MediaWiki in all other respects.

Sounds like you're in a good position to lift the WYSIWYG bits out of  
some other open-source wiki, and plop it in MediaWiki.

Apologies if you don't have the skills or time to do such a thing,  
but consider that others may not, either.


:::: If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will  
automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural  
state of starvation and misery is restored. -- Richard Dawkins ::::
:::: Jan Steinman <http://www.VeggieVanGogh.com/Van> ::::


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Re: wikiwyg in mediawiki

Brion Vibber
In reply to this post by Bierens,Gerard G.J.M.
Gerard Bierens wrote:
> Wait six months to a year? A bit long if you ask me, the demo's on the wikiwyg
> website show the potential of a more friendly editor. Isn't there a programmer
> around who can make this into a mediawiki-extension?

Going from "demo that works on a few very simple things" to "something actually
usable for a real site with five years' worth of data and millions of pages
without breaking everything" is not a trivial task.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


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Re: wikiwyg in mediawiki

Tels
In reply to this post by Christiaan Briggs
Moin,

On Tuesday 25 April 2006 11:00, Christiaan Briggs wrote:
> I've been waiting three years for WYSIWYG or WYSIWYM support in
> MediaWiki. I keep going off trying other Wikis with such support but
> they're never up to par with MediaWiki in all other respects.

Have you looked at:

        http://www.wikiwyg.org/wysi/

Best wishes,

Tels

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Re: wikiwyg in mediawiki

Christiaan Briggs
In reply to this post by Jan Steinman
Yeah I don't have anything close to such skills. I'm not complaining  
either, just making my position known.

Christiaan

On 25 Apr 2006, at 4:41 PM, Jan Steinman wrote:

>> From: Christiaan Briggs <[hidden email]>
>>
>> I've been waiting three years for WYSIWYG or WYSIWYM support in  
>> MediaWiki.
>
> Well... you could *write* one, an contribute it to the project!
>
>> I keep going off trying other Wikis with such support but they're  
>> never up to par with MediaWiki in all other respects.
>
> Sounds like you're in a good position to lift the WYSIWYG bits out  
> of some other open-source wiki, and plop it in MediaWiki.
>
> Apologies if you don't have the skills or time to do such a thing,  
> but consider that others may not, either.


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Re: wikiwyg in mediawiki

Christiaan Briggs
In reply to this post by Tels
Wouldn't open in Safari (our standard office browser). Opened in  
Firefox and looks pretty interesting, but it's not WYSIWYG or WYSIWYM.

Cheers,
Christiaan

On 25 Apr 2006, at 6:09 PM, Tels wrote:

> On Tuesday 25 April 2006 11:00, Christiaan Briggs wrote:
>> I've been waiting three years for WYSIWYG or WYSIWYM support in
>> MediaWiki. I keep going off trying other Wikis with such support but
>> they're never up to par with MediaWiki in all other respects.
>
> Have you looked at:
>
> http://www.wikiwyg.org/wysi/
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Tels

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Re: wikiwyg in mediawiki

Tels
Moin,

On Wednesday 26 April 2006 10:55, Christiaan Briggs wrote:
> Wouldn't open in Safari (our standard office browser). Opened in
> Firefox and looks pretty interesting, but it's not WYSIWYG

Er, why not? *confused*

> or WYSIWYM.

I will have to look that one up.

Best wishes,

Tels

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 12, 1716


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Re: wikiwyg in mediawiki

Joshua Yeidel



On 4/26/06 9:26 AM, "Tels" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Moin,
>
> On Wednesday 26 April 2006 10:55, Christiaan Briggs wrote:
>> Wouldn't open in Safari (our standard office browser). Opened in
>> Firefox and looks pretty interesting, but it's not WYSIWYG
>
> Er, why not? *confused*

The term WYSIWYG is often used to describe user interfaces which give the
appearance that the user is directly manipulating the final output.  Think
Microsoft Word.

Wikiwyg, on the other hand, is a live preview.  You still type wikitext,
which is a code.  [I happen to think wikiwyg is very cool, even if it isn't
WYSIWYG.]
 
>
>> or WYSIWYM.
>
> I will have to look that one up.

>From en.wkipedia.org/WYSIWYM:

WYSIWYM (What You See Is What You Mean) is the paradigm created for LyX. It
means that the things displayed on a computer screen should accurately
display the information that is trying to be conveyed rather than the actual
formatting.

How that would be helpful in wiki-page authoring, where formatting is part
of the meaning (unlike XML authoring, which is where WYSIWYM originates).

-- Joshua

>
> Best wishes,
>
> Tels

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Re: wikiwyg in mediawiki

Tels
Moin,

On Wednesday 26 April 2006 23:55, Joshua Yeidel wrote:

> On 4/26/06 9:26 AM, "Tels" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Moin,
> >
> > On Wednesday 26 April 2006 10:55, Christiaan Briggs wrote:
> >> Wouldn't open in Safari (our standard office browser). Opened in
> >> Firefox and looks pretty interesting, but it's not WYSIWYG
> >
> > Er, why not? *confused*
>
> The term WYSIWYG is often used to describe user interfaces which give
> the appearance that the user is directly manipulating the final output.
>  Think Microsoft Word.
>
> Wikiwyg, on the other hand, is a live preview.  You still type
> wikitext, which is a code.  [I happen to think wikiwyg is very cool,
> even if it isn't WYSIWYG.]
Ah, sorry, I was confused. OTOH, I found the process of true WYSIWYG
always quite confusing, since the editor usually has it's own ideas what
it should format how. But lots of "normal" people are conditioned by
word :-)

> >> or WYSIWYM.
> >
> > I will have to look that one up.
> >
> >From en.wkipedia.org/WYSIWYM:
>
> WYSIWYM (What You See Is What You Mean) is the paradigm created for
> LyX. It means that the things displayed on a computer screen should
> accurately display the information that is trying to be conveyed rather
> than the actual formatting.
>
> How that would be helpful in wiki-page authoring, where formatting is
> part of the meaning (unlike XML authoring, which is where WYSIWYM
> originates).
I am not sure if it is really possible to seperate meaning (list item
number one) and formatting (this is a list item). The user usually has to
specify both, anyway.

One could whip up a JS (think ajax) editor that behaves like word, but so
far I think nobody did it. Probably because in Word, you select a
headline, type the text in, then select lots of styling (bold/color/size
etc), so having lots of fancy options is desired.

On a wiki you are more restricted, you only have to select headline and
type the text in, the actualy look (size, bold etc) is not in your
control. (well you could use <div style="..">, but that defies the wiki
idea).

Actually you try to only specify the content ("headline") and the
structure ("this is a headline"), but no layout, formatting or style.

And I think since adding a headline is actually only 6 chars more than
typing the text, most people found UI where you'd have to click "add a
new headline here" more to bother than just to type it in. So thats
probably the reason nobody bothered to make a WYSIWYG editor.

Did that make sense?

best wishes,

tels

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Re: wikiwyg in mediawiki

Kalle Alm
Tels wrote:

>> >From en.wkipedia.org/WYSIWYM:
>>
>> WYSIWYM (What You See Is What You Mean) is the paradigm created for
>> LyX. It means that the things displayed on a computer screen should
>> accurately display the information that is trying to be conveyed rather
>> than the actual formatting.
>>
>> How that would be helpful in wiki-page authoring, where formatting is
>> part of the meaning (unlike XML authoring, which is where WYSIWYM
>> originates).
>>    
>
> I am not sure if it is really possible to seperate meaning (list item
> number one) and formatting (this is a list item). The user usually has to
> specify both, anyway.
>
> One could whip up a JS (think ajax) editor that behaves like word, but so
> far I think nobody did it. Probably because in Word, you select a
> headline, type the text in, then select lots of styling (bold/color/size
> etc), so having lots of fancy options is desired.
>  
I just felt the need to comment on the plans we have to integrate
SynchroEdit (www.synchroedit.com) with MediaWiki at some point. I'm
hopeful I can get to work on an extension at some point fairly soon, but
who knows. Sorry for faintly off-topicness. :)

-Kalle.

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Re: wikiwyg in mediawiki

Brion Vibber
In reply to this post by Joshua Yeidel
Joshua Yeidel wrote:
> The term WYSIWYG is often used to describe user interfaces which give the
> appearance that the user is directly manipulating the final output.  Think
> Microsoft Word.
>
> Wikiwyg, on the other hand, is a live preview.  You still type wikitext,
> which is a code.  [I happen to think wikiwyg is very cool, even if it isn't
> WYSIWYG.]

Wikiwyg uses the browser's HTML editor widget, and converts the HTML back to
wikitext for saving -- hopefully to wikitext which will translate back to what
you edited. ;)

You can also click a tab to look at the reconverted wikitext before you save.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


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Re: wikiwyg in mediawiki

Erik Moeller-3
On 4/27/06, Brion Vibber <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Joshua Yeidel wrote:
> > The term WYSIWYG is often used to describe user interfaces which give the
> > appearance that the user is directly manipulating the final output.  Think
> > Microsoft Word.
> >
> > Wikiwyg, on the other hand, is a live preview.  You still type wikitext,
> > which is a code.  [I happen to think wikiwyg is very cool, even if it isn't
> > WYSIWYG.]
>
> Wikiwyg uses the browser's HTML editor widget, and converts the HTML back to
> wikitext for saving -- hopefully to wikitext which will translate back to what
> you edited. ;)
>
> You can also click a tab to look at the reconverted wikitext before you save.

There's two Wikiwygs, one at wikiwyg.net and one at wikiwyg.org. They
are different technologies.

Erik
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Re: wikiwyg in mediawiki

Joshua Yeidel
For clarity, the one I described as a "live preview" is wikiwyg.org.  I
believe the one Brion described as HTML-to-wikitext is wikiwyg.net.

-- Joshua



On 4/26/06 3:55 PM, "Erik Moeller" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 4/27/06, Brion Vibber <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Joshua Yeidel wrote:
>>> The term WYSIWYG is often used to describe user interfaces which give the
>>> appearance that the user is directly manipulating the final output.  Think
>>> Microsoft Word.
>>>
>>> Wikiwyg, on the other hand, is a live preview.  You still type wikitext,
>>> which is a code.  [I happen to think wikiwyg is very cool, even if it isn't
>>> WYSIWYG.]
>>
>> Wikiwyg uses the browser's HTML editor widget, and converts the HTML back to
>> wikitext for saving -- hopefully to wikitext which will translate back to
>> what
>> you edited. ;)
>>
>> You can also click a tab to look at the reconverted wikitext before you save.
>
> There's two Wikiwygs, one at wikiwyg.net and one at wikiwyg.org. They
> are different technologies.
>
> Erik
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Re: wikiwyg in mediawiki

Brion Vibber
Joshua Yeidel wrote:
> For clarity, the one I described as a "live preview" is wikiwyg.org.  I
> believe the one Brion described as HTML-to-wikitext is wikiwyg.net.

If you hear us talking about Wikiwyg, we mean the one sponsored by Socialtext,
which Socialtext would like to adapt to MediaWiki.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)


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Re: wikiwyg in mediawiki

Christiaan Briggs
In reply to this post by Tels
On 26 Apr 2006, at 11:06 PM, Tels wrote:

> And I think since adding a headline is actually only 6 chars more  
> than typing the text, most people found UI where you'd have to  
> click "add a new headline here" more to bother than just to type it  
> in. So thats probably the reason nobody bothered to make a WYSIWYG  
> editor.

No, this isn't the case. Lack of WYSIWYG editing on our wiki intranet  
is the biggest impediment to wide-scale adoption. Period.

People feel overwhelmed as it is by their computers. MediaWiki markup  
to them is just another language they don't have time to learn. And I  
don't blame them.

Christiaan
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Re: wikiwyg in mediawiki

Christiaan Briggs
In reply to this post by Kalle Alm
Looks very cool. Look forward to it.

Christiaan

On 26 Apr 2006, at 11:08 PM, Kalle Alm wrote:

> I just felt the need to comment on the plans we have to integrate  
> SynchroEdit (www.synchroedit.com) with MediaWiki at some point. I'm  
> hopeful I can get to work on an extension at some point fairly  
> soon, but who knows. Sorry for faintly off-topicness. :)
>
> -Kalle.

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