zh-tw still gives simplified Chinese in link titles on Facebook and Google

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zh-tw still gives simplified Chinese in link titles on Facebook and Google

jidanni
Gentlemen, no matter if in Google search results, or Facebook link
previews, links that specifically have the zh-tw part in them
http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/ ...
still end up having simplified Chinese, despite no such simplified <title>
appearing in the entire page.
I suspect somehow the simplified Chinese version is considered Cache
Equivalent for <title> purposes ... but it is not and looks horrible to
me trying to present a fully Traditional appearing link.
Go ahead and test, share "http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/Gmail" via
Facebook, and notice the simplified Chinese there in the title of the
link created.

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Re: zh-tw still gives simplified Chinese in link titles on Facebook and Google

liangent
I guess it's because we have <link rel="canonical"
href="http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gmail" /> in page source, so
Facebook is fetching the canonical (variant-neutral) version (and this
is expected, since http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/Gmail and
http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/Gmail refer to the same article), where
zh is used as the interface language. However zh falls back to
zh-hans, so all interface messages are in zh-hans.

-Liangent

On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 10:49 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Gentlemen, no matter if in Google search results, or Facebook link
> previews, links that specifically have the zh-tw part in them
> http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/ ...
> still end up having simplified Chinese, despite no such simplified <title>
> appearing in the entire page.
> I suspect somehow the simplified Chinese version is considered Cache
> Equivalent for <title> purposes ... but it is not and looks horrible to
> me trying to present a fully Traditional appearing link.
> Go ahead and test, share "http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/Gmail" via
> Facebook, and notice the simplified Chinese there in the title of the
> link created.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

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Re: zh-tw still gives simplified Chinese in link titles on Facebook and Google

liangent
You can ask Facebook to make a change: load the page specified by you
and display it to you, and load another canonical version to store (so
they can do proper link count etc.)...

-Liangent

On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 12:30 PM, Liangent <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I guess it's because we have <link rel="canonical"
> href="http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gmail" /> in page source, so
> Facebook is fetching the canonical (variant-neutral) version (and this
> is expected, since http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/Gmail and
> http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/Gmail refer to the same article), where
> zh is used as the interface language. However zh falls back to
> zh-hans, so all interface messages are in zh-hans.
>
> -Liangent
>
> On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 10:49 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Gentlemen, no matter if in Google search results, or Facebook link
>> previews, links that specifically have the zh-tw part in them
>> http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/ ...
>> still end up having simplified Chinese, despite no such simplified <title>
>> appearing in the entire page.
>> I suspect somehow the simplified Chinese version is considered Cache
>> Equivalent for <title> purposes ... but it is not and looks horrible to
>> me trying to present a fully Traditional appearing link.
>> Go ahead and test, share "http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/Gmail" via
>> Facebook, and notice the simplified Chinese there in the title of the
>> link created.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
>

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Re: zh-tw still gives simplified Chinese in link titles on Facebook and Google

Shen Lee-2
Out of curiosity, what is the reasoning behind having the /zh-tw and /zh-cn
pages indicate that the /wiki pages are canonical? It seems a bit strange to
say that they're more or less the same page when their content isn't really
equivalent and is targeted at different sets of users.

Shen

On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Liangent <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You can ask Facebook to make a change: load the page specified by you
> and display it to you, and load another canonical version to store (so
> they can do proper link count etc.)...
>
> -Liangent
>
> On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 12:30 PM, Liangent <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I guess it's because we have <link rel="canonical"
> > href="http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gmail" /> in page source, so
> > Facebook is fetching the canonical (variant-neutral) version (and this
> > is expected, since http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/Gmail and
> > http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/Gmail refer to the same article), where
> > zh is used as the interface language. However zh falls back to
> > zh-hans, so all interface messages are in zh-hans.
> >
> > -Liangent
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 10:49 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> Gentlemen, no matter if in Google search results, or Facebook link
> >> previews, links that specifically have the zh-tw part in them
> >> http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/ ...
> >> still end up having simplified Chinese, despite no such simplified
> <title>
> >> appearing in the entire page.
> >> I suspect somehow the simplified Chinese version is considered Cache
> >> Equivalent for <title> purposes ... but it is not and looks horrible to
> >> me trying to present a fully Traditional appearing link.
> >> Go ahead and test, share "http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/Gmail" via
> >> Facebook, and notice the simplified Chinese there in the title of the
> >> link created.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikitech-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: zh-tw still gives simplified Chinese in link titles on Facebook and Google

jidanni
>>>>> "SL" == Shen Lee <[hidden email]> writes:
SL> Out of curiosity, what is the reasoning behind having...

And it's making all my links look like a Communist propaganda session.
Dear Wikipedia, please stop it.

SL> On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Liangent <[hidden email]> wrote:
> You can ask Facebook to make a change
This is not a humor list. It is rather hard to get a word in edgewise there.

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Re: zh-tw still gives simplified Chinese in link titles on Facebook and Google

Chad
On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:46 PM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
> And it's making all my links look like a Communist propaganda session.
> Dear Wikipedia, please stop it.
>

Hahahahahahahaha. This just made my day. Thank you.

-Chad

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Re: zh-tw still gives simplified Chinese in link titles on Facebook and Google

Daniel Friesen-4
In reply to this post by jidanni
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 16:46:10 -0700, <[hidden email]> wrote:

>>>>>> "SL" == Shen Lee <[hidden email]> writes:
> SL> Out of curiosity, what is the reasoning behind having...
>
> And it's making all my links look like a Communist propaganda session.
> Dear Wikipedia, please stop it.
>
> SL> On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Liangent <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> You can ask Facebook to make a change
> This is not a humor list. It is rather hard to get a word in edgewise  
> there.

;) Believe it or not, Facebook actually 'does' have a place for bug  
reports:
https://developers.facebook.com/bugs?search_view=search&search_statuses[0]=open

And believe it or not, if you have a valid case to be fixed, and don't  
patronize the devs you're reporting a bug to they may actually fix bugs.

--
~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://daniel.friesen.name]

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Re: zh-tw still gives simplified Chinese in link titles on Facebook and Google

Daniel Friesen-4
In reply to this post by liangent
See this:  
https://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=189077

These variants are automatic conversions so the variant-neutral version is  
in fact the canonical version of the page. Even though it's in a different  
script it is the same text.

Essentially all the variants point to the variant neutral form with  
canonical links. And the canonical page includes rel=alternate forms for  
each of the variants including a hreflang on the <link>.

In search engines like Google and perhaps any others that decide to  
implement this as well it allows the search engine to know what the  
canonical is and understand what other languages or variants a page is  
available in. When provided with this information the search engine can  
give a user using the search engine a link in their own language instead  
of the canonical link. In other words, if Google has separate support for  
say zh-tw and zh-hk and then for the same search result Google can send a  
user who uses zh-tw to our zh-tw variant and a user who users zh-hk to our  
zh-hk variant. All with the same search ranking and results for the page.

The only shame is that each lang requires a rel=alternative and we support  
a pile of languages. If it wouldn't require hundreds of lines inside the  
head I would've liked to add support for an improved persistent uselang.  
Then Google would be nice enough to send users browsing google.de who  
follow an en.wp link to a page that has a German user interface.


So the bug here is in Facebook ignoring what the user inputed and  
canonicalizing the url instead of either keeping the url (but using the  
canonical to group it into one opengraph item) or implementing support for  
rel=alternate's with other hreflang's and providing users who use  
different variants of zh with different urls.

--
~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://daniel.friesen.name]

On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 21:30:08 -0700, Liangent <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I guess it's because we have <link rel="canonical"
> href="http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gmail" /> in page source, so
> Facebook is fetching the canonical (variant-neutral) version (and this
> is expected, since http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/Gmail and
> http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/Gmail refer to the same article), where
> zh is used as the interface language. However zh falls back to
> zh-hans, so all interface messages are in zh-hans.
>
> -Liangent
>
> On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 10:49 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Gentlemen, no matter if in Google search results, or Facebook link
>> previews, links that specifically have the zh-tw part in them
>> http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/ ...
>> still end up having simplified Chinese, despite no such simplified  
>> <title>
>> appearing in the entire page.
>> I suspect somehow the simplified Chinese version is considered Cache
>> Equivalent for <title> purposes ... but it is not and looks horrible to
>> me trying to present a fully Traditional appearing link.
>> Go ahead and test, share "http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/Gmail" via
>> Facebook, and notice the simplified Chinese there in the title of the
>> link created.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: zh-tw still gives simplified Chinese in link titles on Facebook and Google

jidanni
>>>>> "DF" == Daniel Friesen <[hidden email]> writes:

DF> So the bug here is in Facebook ignoring what the user inputed...

Ah, the perfect case to test the effectiveness of

DF> https://developers.facebook.com/bugs?search_view=search&search_statuses[0]=open

But why let me with my paltry understanding of the issues do the honors (or 'worse')?
Do post the URL of the bug I hope you will file here so we can vote for it.
Do mention this thread.
Do tell me the insider's way to post YouTube bugs too if there is one. Thanks.

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Re: zh-tw still gives simplified Chinese in link titles on Facebook and Google

M. Williamson
In reply to this post by Daniel Friesen-4
Umm what the link actually says is this:

"This is recommended in the following scenarios:
- You translate only the template of your page, such as the navigation and
footer, and keep the bulk of your content in a single language. This is
common on pages that feature user-generated content.
- Your page targets users in multiple regions (for example, en-us, en-uk,
and en-ie), but each regional version differs only in small details, such as
the currency used."

Neither of these are true; the entire contents of the whole page are
different (therefore the first scenario does not apply), and Simplified vs.
Traditional is a non-trivial difference not at all analogous to "small
details such as the currency used" (therefore the second scenario does not
apply either).

How sad that the first answer here is a "Not our problem :-)!"...

2011/10/17 Daniel Friesen <[hidden email]>

> See this:
> https://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=189077
>
> These variants are automatic conversions so the variant-neutral version is
> in fact the canonical version of the page. Even though it's in a different
> script it is the same text.
>
> Essentially all the variants point to the variant neutral form with
> canonical links. And the canonical page includes rel=alternate forms for
> each of the variants including a hreflang on the <link>.
>
> In search engines like Google and perhaps any others that decide to
> implement this as well it allows the search engine to know what the
> canonical is and understand what other languages or variants a page is
> available in. When provided with this information the search engine can
> give a user using the search engine a link in their own language instead
> of the canonical link. In other words, if Google has separate support for
> say zh-tw and zh-hk and then for the same search result Google can send a
> user who uses zh-tw to our zh-tw variant and a user who users zh-hk to our
> zh-hk variant. All with the same search ranking and results for the page.
>
> The only shame is that each lang requires a rel=alternative and we support
> a pile of languages. If it wouldn't require hundreds of lines inside the
> head I would've liked to add support for an improved persistent uselang.
> Then Google would be nice enough to send users browsing google.de who
> follow an en.wp link to a page that has a German user interface.
>
>
> So the bug here is in Facebook ignoring what the user inputed and
> canonicalizing the url instead of either keeping the url (but using the
> canonical to group it into one opengraph item) or implementing support for
> rel=alternate's with other hreflang's and providing users who use
> different variants of zh with different urls.
>
> --
> ~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://daniel.friesen.name]
>
> On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 21:30:08 -0700, Liangent <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I guess it's because we have <link rel="canonical"
> > href="http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gmail" /> in page source, so
> > Facebook is fetching the canonical (variant-neutral) version (and this
> > is expected, since http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/Gmail and
> > http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/Gmail refer to the same article), where
> > zh is used as the interface language. However zh falls back to
> > zh-hans, so all interface messages are in zh-hans.
> >
> > -Liangent
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 10:49 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> Gentlemen, no matter if in Google search results, or Facebook link
> >> previews, links that specifically have the zh-tw part in them
> >> http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/ ...
> >> still end up having simplified Chinese, despite no such simplified
> >> <title>
> >> appearing in the entire page.
> >> I suspect somehow the simplified Chinese version is considered Cache
> >> Equivalent for <title> purposes ... but it is not and looks horrible to
> >> me trying to present a fully Traditional appearing link.
> >> Go ahead and test, share "http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/Gmail" via
> >> Facebook, and notice the simplified Chinese there in the title of the
> >> link created.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikitech-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: zh-tw still gives simplified Chinese in link titles on Facebook and Google

jidanni
In reply to this post by Daniel Friesen-4
>>>>> "DF" == Daniel Friesen <[hidden email]> writes:
DF> https://developers.facebook.com/bugs?search_view=search&search_statuses[0]=open

"This is a tool for developers of Platform apps reporting issues developing for Platform, and not for issues or feedback which are site-wide (including issues with profiles), user specific, for third-party apps or for Facebook-provided applications.

To make feedback or suggestions for Facebook or Facebook products, please use the suggestions and feedback tool at https://www.facebook.com/help/?topic=suggestions.

To report an issue or bug with Facebook, please use the links on the 'Known Issues' page at https://www.facebook.com/KnownIssues?sk=app_4949752878.

For other issues, please check out Facebook's Help Center (https://www.facebook.com/help )."

http://developers.facebook.com/bugs/189653611110569?fb_comment_id=fbc_10150503724756110_22588608_10150504059646110

Muahahahah just like I figured.

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Re: zh-tw still gives simplified Chinese in link titles on Facebook and Google

jidanni
In reply to this post by M. Williamson
>>>>> "MW" == M Williamson <[hidden email]> writes:

MW> How sad that the first answer here is a "Not our problem :-)!"...

OK so I created https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=31838
but being blurry as to the details, others will have to fill them in for
me there. Thanks!

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